Please vote: Swedish iron ore change

[Peter Stauffenberg]

This is a spin off from the Norway map change. So please vote on each point.

1. Increase the Swedish iron ore from 3 to 4 (partially to pay for having more garrisons in Norway)

2. The Swedish iron ore will initially be German controlled when Sweden is neutral. The iron ore will
turn to Swedish control under the following circumstances.
a. Sweden is allied with the Axis (Allies DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to Germany. Already implemented
b. Sweden is allied with the Allies (Axis DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to UK. Already implemented
c. An Allied surface naval ship is adjacent to a Norwegian city or port. New functionality ? Please vote
Then the Swedish iron ore is interdicted and won't get to Germany
c1. Only if Norway is neutral
c2. Even if Norway is Axis controlled
please vote on c, c1/c2.

3. Stavanger and Kristiansand are added in Norway
Both cities will have 0 production and no units attached, but they count against the interdiction possibility in 2c.

4. If we vote for 2c2 then the Swedish Iron ore turns to Swedish control if Sweden is neutral and
a. Trondheim is Allied controlled.
b. Bergen is Allied controlled
c. An Allied surface ship is located in any of the 3 Norwegian ports
Please vote

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Point 4 is intended for the situation where Norway is Axis controlled. Then we need to think about how the Allies could have interdicted the Swedish iron ore. It's not likely they could have interdicted the iron ore just by sailing a surface ship to the Norwegian coast. This ship would have been bombarded by the Luftwaffe and not being able to stop the transports from reaching Germany from Narvik.

If the Allies had managed to get a foothold in either Bergen or Trondheim then Allied naval and air units could sink the transports sailing from Narvik because they would control the immediate area around the cities.

So the Germans should secure the Swedish iron ore by controlling the Norwegian cities. While Norway is neutral then an Allied surface ship adjacent to any Norwegian city or port would interdict the transports because no Axis units are nearby to suppress the interdictors.

While Norway is Axis controlled you need to take a port city to interdict the Swedish iron ore. I think that Bergen is very important because all transports must sail past it. Trondheim is closest to Narvik and even though the transports would sail outside the Trondheim fjord an Allied presence here can e. g. interdict the transport.

I excluded Oslo from the list because the Germans could easily send the transports along the Danish west coast to Wilhelmshaven if Oslo had been captured by the Allies, thus not getting close to Oslo.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Please notice that you can vote yes to both 4a and 4b. If yes on both you vote that either city controlled by the Allies will interdict the Swedish iron ore.

This also means that when you invade Norway you better land German units close to Bergen and Trondheim to prevent Allied air units from flying into the
cities and create an interdict situation.

To avoid this cheesy situation I suggested 4c where the Allies must actually have a surface naval ship in either the Trondheim or Bergen port to interdict the iron ore route. Then it's not enough to control the city. So the Allies need to set aside a DD or BB to do interdiction work. That's probably more historical because the Allies should dedicate some ships to hunt for the German transports.

The addition of Stavanger and Kristiansand and increase of iron ore from 3 to 4 means the Germans can afford to send 2 extra garrisons to Norway to keep all cities occupied. They can then rail adjacent to cities under threat from cities not under threat. So this change will not make life harder for Germany except knowing that the iron ore CAN be interdicted.

Please vote for all those 4 points.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

A side effect of this is that the Swedish iron ore can be interdicted before the fall of France so Germany should maybe have some subs close to Norway to punish Allied ships interdicting the ore.

A possible exploit is that the Allies send French naval units to Norway, but if the Germans sink some of them then they can more easily reject the French armistice offer. If the Germans capture Denmark early then can place tactical bombers in Denmark during the winter to punish Allied ships near Stavanger and Kristiansand.

To make this less easy to interdict we could e. g. make a prerequisite that more than 1 Norwegian Allied surface ship participates in the interdiction

5. Number of Allied surface ships needed to enforce iron ore interdiction
a. 1
b. 2
c. 3

These naval units can adjacent to the same or different Norwegian city / port.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

To give the Germans a chance to contest the interdiction we could let the number voted on in 5 instead be the following:

6. Effective interdictors = number of Allied ships that has not moved at the end of the turn

This means that if the Axis players attacks one of the interdictors then the interdictor will not be counted since it will be flagged as has moved after being in a battle. It also means interdictors will only be counted if they spend their entire turn in the interdicting hex. If you move to the hex you won't be counted until next turn.

So the Germans can neutralize interdictors by harassing them with air units, subs or surface naval ships.

If we add this rule we might consider that interdiction is still possible after Norway is Axis controlled. This would encourage the Axis to place naval units
in Bergen / Trondheim or an air unit that can bombard the interdicting naval ship.

7. If we vote yes on 6 then interdiction should always be possible (even if Norway is Axis controlled).Please vote on 6-7 as well

[rkr1958]

1. Increase the Swedish iron ore from 3 to 4 - YES

2. The Swedish iron ore will initially be German controlled when Sweden is neutral. The iron ore will turn to Swedish control under the following circumstances.
a. Sweden is allied with the Axis (Allies DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to Germany. Already implemented
b. Sweden is allied with the Allies (Axis DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to UK. Already implemented
c. An Allied surface naval ship is adjacent to a Norwegian city or port. New functionality ? Please vote
Then the Swedish iron ore is interdicted and won't get to Germany – YES.
c1. Only if Norway is neutral – YES.
c2. Even if Norway is Axis controlled – YES. But only if the RN is based in Trondheim and / or Bergen ports (see comments below).


3. Stavanger and Kristiansand are added in Norway - YES

4. If we vote for 2c2 then the Swedish Iron ore turns to Swedish control if Sweden is neutral and
a. Trondheim is Allied controlled. – ONLY if an allied naval surface unit occupies the port.
b. Bergen is Allied controlled – ONLY if an allied naval surface unit occupies the port.
c. An Allied surface ship is located in any of the 3 Norwegian ports – YES (except for Oslo). This means to interdict the Swedish Iron that that allied player must capture Bergen or Trondheim and deploy an RN surface naval unit to one of those ports to interdict.


5. Number of Allied surface ships needed to enforce iron ore interdiction – a & b
a. 1 – interdicts 50% of the PP’s ore
b. 2 – interdicts 100% of the PP’s from the iron ore
c. 3

6. Effective interdictors = number of Allied ships that has not moved at the end of the turn – YES.
7. If we vote yes on 6 then interdiction should always be possible (even if Norway is Axis controlled).Please vote on 6-7 as well – My YES vote in 6 is based on the requirement that the allies control either or both the Trondheim & Bergen ports.

[PionUrpo]

I think the possibility to interdict the iron ore shipments is a good idea to implement. Also, adding the two cities makes more sense in this context. My votes are same as Ronnie's.

[gerones]

My votes:

1. Increase the Swedish iron ore from 3 to 4 YES

2. The Swedish iron ore will initially be German controlled when Sweden is neutral. The iron ore will turn to Swedish control under the following circumstances.
a. Sweden is allied with the Axis (Allies DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to Germany. Already implemented
b. Sweden is allied with the Allies (Axis DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to UK. Already implemented
c. An Allied surface naval ship is adjacent to a Norwegian city or port. YES Trondheim
Then the Swedish iron ore is interdicted and won't get to Germany YES
c1. Only if Norway is neutral NO this would interfere in norwegian sovereignty and then in Norway´s neutrality.
c2. Even if Norway is Axis controlled YES, only if Norway is Axis controlled


3. Stavanger and Kristiansand are added in Norway YES no worries about a weak german defense of Norway because of the rail capability

4. If we vote for 2c2 then the Swedish Iron ore turns to Swedish control if Sweden is neutral and
a. Trondheim is Allied controlled. Once Trondheim is captured by the allies and there´s a significant allied naval presence (2 naval units) should be enough to "cut off" Iron ore route. This would simulate a specifical allied operation to cut off Iron ore route
b. Bergen is Allied controlled
c. An Allied surface ship is located in any of the 3 Norwegian ports


5. Number of Allied surface ships needed to enforce iron ore interdiction
a. 1 NO
b. 2 YES
c. 3 NO

6. Effective interdictors = number of Allied ships that has not moved at the end of the turn YES

7. If we vote yes on 6 then interdiction should always be possible (even if Norway is Axis controlled).Please vote on 6-7 as well NO interdiction would be only possible in a occupied Norway.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Victor, I just want to remind you that the British had already started to interdict German iron ore BEFORE Weserübüng. They also violated Norwegian neutrality in the Altmark affair. So the Allies would certainly violate Norwegian neutrality to prevent Germany from getting the crucial Swedish iron ore.

The very reason the Germans actually invaded Norway was because Hitler didn't believe Norway was capable of maintaining their sovereignty. The Altmark affair (when a German transport vessel with British PoW's were boarded by the RN in Norwegian coastal waters) showed Hitler that Norway would do nothing to stop such things. So they invaded Norway to preempt the Allies from doing the same.

So I certainly think we need to create a situation where both the Germans and British will be drawn into conflict because of Norway. If you can't interdict the iron ore if Norway is neutral then UK will never bother with Norway. That means the Germans will always get the iron ore. If the Germans know that the British can interdict the ore then they will certainly have to deal with Norway one way or another. One is to keep subs near Norway so interdictors can be attacked. Another is to invade Norway as they did historically.

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weser%C3%BCbung

[Peter Stauffenberg]

If I understand you correctly, Ronnie, then the Swedish iron ore can't be interdicted when Norway is Axis occupied if Bergen and Trondheim are Axis controlled. So there is no sense sending any interdictors to the Norwegian coast line unless you intend to invade as well. Is this what you meant?

Then I guess we don't need to have an interdictor number while Norway is Axis controlled. If Trondheim or Bergen is Allied controlled then the Swedish iron ore wouldn't get to Germany at all.

I think that we can do this in a simple way. The Allies need 2 interdictors more than German surface ships to completely interdict the Swedish iron ore. If the difference is 1 then the Swedish iron ore is halved. If the difference is 0 then it's not interdicted.

To make this simple we can just count the Axis surface ships in / adjacent to Norwegiain cities and ports. So the Kriegsmarine can place the BB's in the Bergen and Trondheim ports and maybe one in Oslo as well. That means the ships can't easily be attacked and each of them will increase the number of Allied ships needed for an effective interdiction. With Axis surface ships in all 3 ports the Allies need 5 surface ships adjacent to Norwegian cities / ports to completely interdict the iron ore.

A very good side effect of this is to encourage the Germans to use the Kriegsmarine in Norwegian coastal waters. Many German warships were located in Norway like Tirpitz. The ships were a constant threat to the Murmansk convoy and could also sink interdictors if the Allies dare to prevent it.

Isn't that a simple solution to the interdiction calculation?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

We can use the same rule regardless of Norway being neutral or Axis controlled. While Norway is neutral the Axis can't put their surface ships in ports so the ships are more vulnerable to counter attacks. That's a very good reason to invade Norway so your ships protecting the iron ore can be safe from RN attacks.

[rkr1958]

We can use the same rule regardless of Norway being neutral or Axis controlled. While Norway is neutral the Axis can't put their surface ships in ports so the ships are more vulnerable to counter attacks. That's a very good reason to invade Norway so your ships protecting the iron ore can be safe from RN attacks.

All that sounds good to me with one suggestion. I would count allied ships adjacent to the Norway coast, in general. This would prevent the situation where an axis BB occupies a port and can attack the allied BB but the allied BB couldn't attack the axis naval unit in port. In effect, an allied surface ship adjacent to the Norwegien coast would be considered as intedicting the Swedish iron ore.

[gerones]

We can use the same rule regardless of Norway being neutral or Axis controlled. While Norway is neutral the Axis can't put their surface ships in ports so the ships are more vulnerable to counter attacks. That's a very good reason to invade Norway so your ships protecting the iron ore can be safe from RN attacks.

This a simpler solution. Anyway, we could let the 2 norwegian cities mentioned for a more challenging scenario.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I made an even simpler rule.

I count the number of interdictors / protectors adjacent to each Norwegian city / port. If the number >= 1 then the city / port is interdicted or protected. So the max number you can get is level 5 interdiction and level 5 protection.

While Norway is neutral then no naval units can occupy any of the 3 Norwegian ports so the interdictors / protectors are rather vulnerable. to counter attacks.

interdiction is calculated like this at the end of each Axis turn

interdictor level - protector level >= 2 then full interdiction and iron ore is set to 0 for that turn
interdictor level - protector level = 1 then partial interdiction and iron ore is set to half (2) for that turn
interdictor level - protector level <= 0 then no interdiction and iron ore is max (4) for that turn

So the Germans gain a safe way to protect the iron ore by gaining the Norwegian ports after capturing Norway. Having surface naval ships in those ports means they protect the iron ore without risking being attacked by Royal Navy surface ships. Having the Norwegian hexes for airbases will make it easier to retaliate against the Allied interdictors.

I think such a simple rule is probably easier to remember.

[Blathergut]

Giving both sides reason to be involved in norway is good. Best to keep it all as simple as possible.

[zechi]

I like the basic idea of this proposal, but it feels a little bit to complicated for the general "easy to learn hard to master" feel of the game. From my point of view we are now beginning to introduce a lot of special rules and scenarios, which will result in a game which is not "easy to learn" anymore.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if it is worth to put such a mechanic in the game if it will only affect 4 PP more or less for the Axis? Will the Allies really try to interdict this, because of 4 PP per turn? I do not think so. The Allied player will not take this risk in the initial part of the game, but I fear In the later game (1943+) it will be easy to interdict, because of Allied naval superiority. If this is to easy, then I think that this would not be realistic, because as far as I know the Allies did not manage to interdict the Swedish iron ore even in the later stages of the war.

Perhaps I'm a little bit too pessimistic about this, but I still have doubts that this is a good idea.

[KingHunter3059]

So please vote on each point.

1. Increase the Swedish iron ore from 3 to 4 (partially to pay for having more garrisons in Norway)

2. The Swedish iron ore will initially be German controlled when Sweden is neutral. The iron ore will
turn to Swedish control under the following circumstances.
a. Sweden is allied with the Axis (Allies DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to Germany. Already implemented
b. Sweden is allied with the Allies (Axis DoW Sweden). Then all Swedish PP's will go to UK. Already implemented
c. An Allied surface naval ship is adjacent to a Norwegian city or port. New functionality ? Please vote
Then the Swedish iron ore is interdicted and won't get to Germany
c1. Only if Norway is neutral
c2. Even if Norway is Axis controlled
please vote on c, c1/c2.

3. Stavanger and Kristiansand are added in Norway
Both cities will have 0 production and no units attached, but they count against the interdiction possibility in 2c.

4. If we vote for 2c2 then the Swedish Iron ore turns to Swedish control if Sweden is neutral and
a. Trondheim is Allied controlled.
b. Bergen is Allied controlled
c. An Allied surface ship is located in any of the 3 Norwegian ports
Please vote

1. Yes
2.a Yes
2.b Yes
2.c Yes
2.c1 No
2.c2 Yes
3. Yes

[KingHunter3059]

A side effect of this is that the Swedish iron ore can be interdicted before the fall of France so Germany should maybe have some subs close to Norway to punish Allied ships interdicting the ore.

A possible exploit is that the Allies send French naval units to Norway, but if the Germans sink some of them then they can more easily reject the French armistice offer. If the Germans capture Denmark early then can place tactical bombers in Denmark during the winter to punish Allied ships near Stavanger and Kristiansand.

To make this less easy to interdict we could e. g. make a prerequisite that more than 1 Norwegian Allied surface ship participates in the interdiction

5. Number of Allied surface ships needed to enforce iron ore interdiction
a. 1
b. 2
c. 3

These naval units can adjacent to the same or different Norwegian city / port.

b.

[KingHunter3059]

To give the Germans a chance to contest the interdiction we could let the number voted on in 5 instead be the following:

6. Effective interdictors = number of Allied ships that has not moved at the end of the turn

This means that if the Axis players attacks one of the interdictors then the interdictor will not be counted since it will be flagged as has moved after being in a battle. It also means interdictors will only be counted if they spend their entire turn in the interdicting hex. If you move to the hex you won't be counted until next turn.

So the Germans can neutralize interdictors by harassing them with air units, subs or surface naval ships.

If we add this rule we might consider that interdiction is still possible after Norway is Axis controlled. This would encourage the Axis to place naval units
in Bergen / Trondheim or an air unit that can bombard the interdicting naval ship.

7. If we vote yes on 6 then interdiction should always be possible (even if Norway is Axis controlled).Please vote on 6-7 as well

6.Yes
7. No

[schwerpunkt]

I like the basic idea of this proposal, but it feels a little bit to complicated for the general "easy to learn hard to master" feel of the game. From my point of view we are now beginning to introduce a lot of special rules and scenarios, which will result in a game which is not "easy to learn" anymore.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if it is worth to put such a mechanic in the game if it will only affect 4 PP more or less for the Axis? Will the Allies really try to interdict this, because of 4 PP per turn? I do not think so. The Allied player will not take this risk in the initial part of the game, but I fear In the later game (1943+) it will be easy to interdict, because of Allied naval superiority. If this is to easy, then I think that this would not be realistic, because as far as I know the Allies did not manage to interdict the Swedish iron ore even in the later stages of the war.

Perhaps I'm a little bit too pessimistic about this, but I still have doubts that this is a good idea.

I dont want to get a reputation for being anti new ideas but I agree with Zechi. It sounds interesting but adds more complexity and more play balance testing.....