Baltic States

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:05 am

I have a few questions & suggestions.

first off i notice the Baltic states, now i dont know what has been discussed about this but, I think you should have the option to declare war on them as the Axis. Of course i think in doing so should cause multiple repercussions to the Germans for that. I guess these could range from speedy entry from the USSR,(since you are breaking a deal with them anyhow) fast mobilization,maybe war(but there not too prepared for that) maybe even penalty's to the Germans themselves like unit moral drop, ext. hell i dont know, need some ideas,but anyhow i still believe you should have the option to declare war on them weighting in on the pros and cons of it. Of course it would be neat to have the Baltic as the Germans, being alittle closer to Moscow knowing because of that the Russians have taken steps for a War.

This is just a simple game against the allied AI

Whats your guys thoughts??

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:19 am

Now that we've opened Pandora's box with Spain and Turkey, perhaps this wouldn't be a bad option. However, they should be liberateable if they've been taken by the Soviets. No need for all ppl playing Axis to repeat the evil errors of WWII.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:33 am

Well you can actually now declare war on the Baltic States by declaring war on Russia. In Avalon Hill's 3R the axis also could not declare war on the Baltic States unless the Soviet player decided not to enter the states himself. As I remember the rules there got very complicated.

Historically, Hilter made a non-aggression pact with Stalin for them to divide up Poland so he didn't have to worry about the Soviet Union. The whole 2-front war thing. So from an historical point of view I think that the axis player having the ability to also invade Eastern Europe without going to war with the Soviet Union is not that realistic.

PionUrpo · Post by **PionUrpo** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:28 pm

There's no way that Stalin would've let Germans just waltz to Baltic states after the M-R pact without going ballistic. IMHO it would almost certainly lead to a war and while Soviets weren't ready for it neither were the Germans. Basicly, it would be sure way for Axis player to lose so why add it?

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:42 pm

well thats why i posted this,

The whole 2-front war thing. So from an historical point of view I think that the axis player having the ability to also invade Eastern Europe without going to war with the Soviet Union is not that realistic

true at that but even though we want to have a historical type game with out allways having the same events and actions that happend, this could be a what-if actions for the German player.yes its unrealistic, and breaking the pact like PionUrop said would anger the soviets, i just feel it could be a option to have. Like i said are you prepared to face the repercussions of that.... we all know what a 2 fronter did to the Germans in WW1.

What is the Russians entry in GS.2.00?

i know the original was fall of 41.

Like i said the only reason why i wrote this is just to have a what-if option. It may be(very)bad for ya to do so, but thats your call.
So the only thing i can think of is speedy entry or faster war effort on the Russians part(even though there a hard nut to crack anyhow)

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:15 pm

As the axis player you are able to invade the Baltic States in 1939 if you wish. Just declare war on the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union, if not invaded by the axis before, will begin mobilizing for war in October 1941 and will enter in May 1942. Mobilization means that Russian War Production goes to 100%, which gives the allied player more PP's for reseach and unit builds.

One thing I think we do need to look at is that the Russian oil stockpile stays at 50 until they activate or are invaded. I've seen some discussion on raising that 100. This initial stockpile was originally set to 50 and other things to remove the Russian armor blob strategy that unrealistically could be used to stop the Germans cold in 1941.

While we don't want to implement changes that force the "historical" chain of events and approximate timeline in every game we do want this to be at least, or approximately, attractive as alternate strategies and appraoches. Also, we want alternate strategies and approaches that can work to pass the "historical" belivability/realism test. Of course, the "historical" belivability/realism test is a source of much discussion and compromise on the part of all us.

What we don't want is some stratgegy/appraoch that can work that is NOT historically belivable/realistic. Other WW-II games may allow this but to NOT allow this has been one of our fundmental tentants dating back to the BJR-Mod days.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:02 pm

As the axis player you are able to invade the Baltic States in 1939 if you wish

R you sure about that? I still can't

Just declare war on the Soviet Union

I did this and nothing, i may have it wrong but i thought u meant if you declare war with the USSR your able to move in the Baltic, right?
All that happened was i was at war with them thats it. It may be easier if you make the entire Baltic one nation that you can declared war on.

After i went to war with the Soviets,1.) they joined the allies ofcourse.
2.) Russia does not grab eastern Poland & the Baltic stays neutralist during this.

If for game purposes this is not possible, then thats fine, dont want to have any New bugs, added to this.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Hammer4000 wrote:
As the axis player you are able to invade the Baltic States in 1939 if you wish
R you sure about that? I still can't

Just declare war on the Soviet Union
I did this and nothing, i may have it wrong but i thought u meant if you declare war with the USSR your able to move in the Baltic, right?
All that happened was i was at war with them thats it. It may be easier if you make the entire Baltic one nation that you can declared war on.

After i went to war with the Soviets,1.) they joined the allies ofcourse.
2.) Russia does not grab eastern Poland & the Baltic stays neutralist during this.

If for game purposes this is not possible, then thats fine, dont want to have any New bugs, added to this.

O.K. Then this is something we need to look at. Nice find.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:23 pm

Just wondering here, but when you meant just declare war on the Soviets, what was supposed to happen exactly with the Baltic?

Just for play i'm gonna do a quick hotseat game, and declare war on the Russians in Sep 1939 and leave the Russians alone, i.m 99% certen that in 1940 the Baltic will become theres and, well with Eastern Poland, i dont know about that one, since being at war, the russains wont be owning eastern poland, i'll see what happens.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:34 pm

this is what i did with the German turn in Sep.1.1939,I declared war on Russia & Poland. i pulled polish troops out of warsaw, on the 2nd turn to speed things up. After Poland fell, Russia followed up on the Moltove pact deal, even though i,m at war with Russia too,

I thought this was kinda funny, at the same time i was kinda hoping for Germany owning all of poland, I.m gonna start over just to be sure, since poland fell on the same turn (sep.21) that the russains would own there piece.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:32 pm

So have some results this is due i,m sure to the coded/written events so until then...

Ok for this demonstration i decided to pull off a 1939 invasion of Russia. After Poland fell with Russia at war, Russia fulfilled its pact with me,regardless of war with me.

So here you can see that the Germans are driving further into Russia, at the appropriate time, Russia again fulfilled its pact with us, and annexes all of the Baltic even without touching it. However Russia never did take the region in ?Romania?

Showing the result of course

So i,ve been thinking is there anyway you can set up a Event like for when France surrenders, after Paris Falls? You could have the option of fulfilling the pact with the Russians or breaking pact before hand. This is a kinda thing i remember with a different game Hearts of Iron. I remember after you decide to sign the deal with the Soviets you had the choice, when the time came to decide to (change) your mind with the deal, ofcourse pissing off the Soviet Union too. I think this would be a pretty cool idea.uh?

So theres been some weird results with this little experiment, witch i figured would happen anyhow.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:53 pm

OK Ronnie this is something i did, just to see i went to the general.txt file and change the days per turn from 20 to 5. Why just so i had more room to do stuff in Poland, becuse no matter what on Sep.21.1939 Russia owns eastern poland

after i did this i noticed that the russians dont own it, i thought that they would no matter if 1) Poland Surrenders or 2) by the timeline i guess not

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:01 pm

Changing the turn length is not a good idea because many events are based upon turn number.

It seems you don't have Haettenschweiler installed as a font. Therefore you get clipping of text.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:15 pm

hanging the turn length is not a good idea because many events are based upon turn number.

right i made a back up and its just for experimental thats all. Now when you say"Events are based upon turn number" Do you speak of the date or turns?

Because i have noticed that in turn 2 or 3 the Russains will take Eastern poland. As you can see in the picture the Russians dont have it, and its turn 4,so i'm guessing, the events are run off dates right?

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:19 am

Hammer4000 wrote:
hanging the turn length is not a good idea because many events are based upon turn number.
right i made a back up and its just for experimental thats all. Now when you say"Events are based upon turn number" Do you speak of the date or turns?

Because i have noticed that in turn 2 or 3 the Russains will take Eastern poland. As you can see in the picture the Russians dont have it, and its turn 4,so i'm guessing, the events are run off dates right?

Robert, I really appreciate your enthusiasm and the fact that you're really diving into the beta. But; please don't report any anomalies in this area for games played with ANY modified files. When you do we don't know if the anomalies are due to a bug in the beta version or a result of something to do with a modified file.

I did confirm what you found, which is that the axis player cannot enter the Baltic states on turn 1 even if they declare war on the USSR and Poland. Also, the USSR can't enter the Baltic States either on their turn. This is a good find and something that we need to address. Thank you for uncovering this.

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:17 am

obert, I really appreciate your enthusiasm and the fact that you're really diving into the beta. But; please don't report any anomalies in this area for games played with ANY modified files. When you do we don't know if the anomalies are due to a bug in the beta version or a result of something to do with a modified file.

yea i tend to go over board alot,lol i agree keep evrything on track for Beta reasons.

did confirm what you found, which is that the axis player cannot enter the Baltic states on turn 1 even if they declare war on the USSR and Poland. Also, the USSR can't enter the Baltic States either on their turn. This is a good find and something that we need to address. Thank you for uncovering this.

Thats good then i'm glad to have helped on that, any ideas on some sort of event option like for France? So the German player can choose whether to honor the pact with the Russians.

P.S the only reason i did that changed before, was to see how the outcome would be in Poland. It really was no important info on my part,really the only reason i did this is for, to show that even if your at war with the Russians in 39'(although unlikely) that they would own E.Poland witch i think is weired anyhow,thats all. Untill Then
Cheers

Hammer4000 · Post by **Hammer4000** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:32 am

OH there is one more thing in the picture up above where you see the Baltic as neutral

THEN look at it when, they get owned by the Russians, you see the grey hex?

That was a fighter of mine that somehow moved/appeared there, by itself, not to sure on that one,when are my air units were next to Minsk.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:38 am

In order to be able to DoW each of the Baltic states we need to add a capital to each of Tallinn, Riga and Kaunas and also make flag images for these countries. Then they can be DoW'able. Shall I do that?

Since the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was the reason Germany invaded Poland I think we just can't let Germany conquer the Baltic States without consequences. The real Germans wanted to buy time in the east so they could knock out France and maybe get a peace treaty with UK. Breaking the newly signed agreement just to capture a Baltic country seems like a very unlikely possibility for Germany.

I think we have 2 options in such a situation. Germany will have to DoW each country separately. DoW'ing the first of these 3 will make Russia mobilizing. This means USSR will get about 30 higher war effort.

Each DoW will have a 25% increased chance for Russia joining the Allies. So first DoW has a 25% chance. Second a 50% chance and third a 75% chance.

This means the Germans will make a big risk if they DoW any of the Baltic states. They need to hurry because the Russians will annex these countries in the Spring of 1940. So you might end up having Russia on the Allies side without any surprise efficiency loss.

So I don't think we will often see Germans DoW'ing any of the Baltic states.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:23 am

Stauffenberg wrote:In order to be able to DoW each of the Baltic states we need to add a capital to each of Tallinn, Riga and Kaunas and also make flag images for these countries. Then they can be DoW'able. Shall I do that?

Since the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was the reason Germany invaded Poland I think we just can't let Germany conquer the Baltic States without consequences. The real Germans wanted to buy time in the east so they could knock out France and maybe get a peace treaty with UK. Breaking the newly signed agreement just to capture a Baltic country seems like a very unlikely possibility for Germany.

I think we have 2 options in such a situation. Germany will have to DoW each country separately. DoW'ing the first of these 3 will make Russia mobilizing. This means USSR will get about 30 higher war effort.

Each DoW will have a 25% increased chance for Russia joining the Allies. So first DoW has a 25% chance. Second a 50% chance and third a 75% chance.

This means the Germans will make a big risk if they DoW any of the Baltic states. They need to hurry because the Russians will annex these countries in the Spring of 1940. So you might end up having Russia on the Allies side without any surprise efficiency loss.

So I don't think we will often see Germans DoW'ing any of the Baltic states.

I vote for the second options (i.e., 25%, 50% & 75% chance of entering the war for the 1st, 2nd & 3rd DOW of a Baltic State). By the way, I'm assuming these are a one time draws for each invasion.

I guess one question is in the extremely unlikely event that the German player does invade a Baltic State and the Russians do not enter what happens if the time comes for Russia to annex the Baltic States with German units in an unconquered one? I know ... this is probably more rare than winning the lottery ...

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:18 am

If the German Player invades the Latvia and Estonia this is a clear infringement of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as according to the pact both countries were part of the Soviet sphere of interest.

However, Lithuania was in fact part of the German sphere of interest according to the pact as you see here:

Only after the invasion of eastern Poland by the Soviets this was changed and the Soviets got most of Lithuania as part of their sphere of interest. The Germans got in exchange a bigger part of Poland.

Therefore, it could be argued that if the German player is very quick in finishing of Poland (theoretical it is possible to capture Poland on turn 1) he could then get Lithuania before the Soviets invade eastern Poland. Nevertheless, I do not think that we need this unlikely possibility as it will not enhance the game in anyway.

From my point of view this should be kept simple, i.e. the Soviets should declare war on Germany if the Germans violate the pact as it would then be void.

Baltic States

Baltic States

I,m at war and making deals with the enemy