Level Bombers

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:01 pm

They suffer from similar ailments as suppression based artillery.
Don't kill enough to warrant their use vs cheaper(mass infantry) or more effective(tactical bomber) alternatives.

Additionally though, their great 'anti-naval' capacity is actually pretty terrible.
Take a He-111 or Ju-88 on a CLEAR day.
Bomb a battleship in Sea Lion, estimated 1 causality inflicted, with an attack power of 14. While a submarine, with an attack power of 10 has estimated 4 casualties.
Bomb a destroyer, estimated 2 casualties inflicted(terrible), with an attack power of 14. While a light cruiser, with attack power of 16 has estimated 6 casualties.

Oh, you get the bonus of destroying ammunition and fuel reserves.
That Battleship lost 6 ammo and 50 fuel. Too bad it still has 41 ammo and 346 fuel left. How many round the clock turns of level bombing to deplete a battleship? Yea, that's a great use of prestige.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:31 pm

Any thoughts or comments?

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:54 pm

I guess, the only comment here is that we'll need to tweak a few parameters of level bombers to do them right. In particular, cost and attack ratings. Then they will have their place: they cause lasting suppression (unlike arty, they already do that), destroy fuel/ammo and are much less vulnerable to ground fire, so they can be good to suppress even AA units. Also, their naval attack suffers from the fact that level bomber is a suppressing type, so most hits go into suppression. I think, for ships this should not be the case - most hits should go to kills instead.

As for swarming tactics, we shall see how bad the situation really is, and if infy is too cheap, then it will cost more than now.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:41 pm

Sounds well balanced to me.
Keep lasting suppression against ground units, because under almost all circumstances, you can only bomb a single hex with level bombers once per turn. Should help prevent complete suppression of a single hex, which would be easier for artillery to do.
They really need to be ship killers and not ship suppressors though, I mean the reason level bombers are so effective against ships is because they are using torpedoes or even radio controlled guided missiles in one case, correct?

The swarm tactic problem will become very clear once multiplayer and head to head play starts, but in the meantime the only scenario where it's an obstacle is Norway. I believe part of that problem is because the Allies in Norway simply don't have many options to choose to purchase from, and yet they are inundated with prestige.

As for offensive swarms/losing 1 core unit per turn type gameplay, I'll make a new thread.

boredatwork · Post by **boredatwork** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:21 pm

Kerensky wrote:They really need to be ship killers and not ship suppressors though, I mean the reason level bombers are so effective against ships is because they are using torpedoes or even radio controlled guided missiles in one case, correct?

I don't know if it would be fair to say, at least in the context of Norway that level bombers should be ship killers. The He111 weren't equiped to carry torpedoes until the end of 1940 (although the He115 seaplane did) and the guided missiles weren't available until 1943.

The only early "level bomber" that was really successful in the role was the Ju88 which was actually capable of making dive bombing attacks. In any other PG airforce the Ju88 would have fallen into the TacBomber category along with the A-26s, B-25s, Blenheims, Mosquitos, Beaufighters and Pe-2s of the allies.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:05 am

For historical accuracy, they could have several models of the HE-111 and JU-88 units, the difference between the variants being year available and stats. Sort of like how there are multiple 109 variants. Either way, some level bombers need to be effective against naval units for game play purposes, especially those with high naval attack values.

Easterner · Post by **Easterner** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:35 am

Goring and Raeder made a deal )I'm not making this up) We don't give you planes, and we don't give you torpedoes. So other than pre-war stocks (113 IIRC) the Luftwaffe did w/o until Italy took pity on them and gave them torps in '42. There were 2 radio controlled bombs 1 AP, 1 HE fuzed. They devastated fleets in Med crippling a bunch of capital ships and killing merchants and LST types. Radio jamming left them ineffective till apprx 7/44 when missiles countermeasure put them back in service again.

The LW levels and Stuka's were pitiful against ships in '39. 100 Ju97 fell on Polish navy...no hits. the Graf Zepplin's Stuka Squadron hit them the next day and wiped them out 12-18 planes. But the Brits gave them lots of target practice in the Channel during the phony war. Magnetic Mines very effective. One bomber even sank 2 DD's on one pass with bombs a record still unbroken, unfortunately they were Ger. DD's. In Norway the LW kept the RN at bay after the KM was effectively wiped out. By '41 at Crete the LW were veteran ship killers and a few months later sank 2 Russ BB in Baltic.

Losses at Norway were 1 CV, 1 CA, 1 CLAA, 10 DD/PC (includes 1 FR, 1 Nor), 5 SS sunk (mostly Nor); 9 LW A/C destroyed out of 1050 sent to bomb during campaign 0.9%. Many ships listed lost to surface action.

Losses at Crete were 3 CL, 6 DD Sunk; 1 CV 2 BB, 6 CL, 7 DD damaged; AA Allied KIA 22 LW aircraft All ships lost to air action mostly Ju 87/88 attacks.