Is there anywhere to find a summary of proposed changes. I can see each individual thread discusses but is there a summarized list somewhere.
Thanks in advance.
Summary of Proposed Changes
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JJMicromegas
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rbodleyscott
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Here is what is in the first beta version:
Please excuse the lack of formatting:
ARMY LIST CHANGES
For this phase of beta testing please make the following alterations to existing lists:
1. All Roman troops which currently have Skilled Swordsman capability instead have Swordsmen capability and cost 1 point less.
SUBSTANTIVE RULES CHANGES (SO FAR) INCORPORATED IN FOG 2.0 BETA
1. All Roman troops which currently have Skilled Swordsman capability instead have Swordsmen capability and cost 1 point less.
2. Maximum army break point of total points/50. [This could be 60 if 50 is not thought stringent enough, but 50 is an easier calculation]
3. Lost C-in-C counts as 1 Attrition Point towards army break point.
4. Evading troops cannot turn at any table edge to avoid evading off the table. [Note, however, that they can still shift up to 1 base width or drop back bases if that allows them to avoid leaving the table].
5. Evading troops leaving the table must take a CMT. If they pass they count as 1 attrition point, if they fail they count as 2.
6. Teleport interpenetrations and leapfrog interpenetrations removed.
7. No wheel or double wheel can exceed a total of 90 degrees.
8. Wheel in a charge must be at the start of the charge and is declared before any charge responses are declared.
9. Armoured knights move 5 MUs in open. [Needs to also go in QRS]
10. HF move 4 MUs in open when more than 6 MUs from enemy. [Needs to also go in QRS]
11. The player winning the pre-battle initiative roll can choose whether to keep the initiative or pass it over to his opponent. (Thus getting to move first).
12. Roads placed last during terrain set-up so that they cannot be used to block other terrain placement.
13. Flank and rear charges separately defined.
14. Autobreak points changed: Superior now break on same losses as Average. [Major play-testing required. Ready reckoner may still be useful]
15. Columns:
i. Kinked columns cannot charge or intercept.
ii. All columns suffer a -1 POA in close combat. [Needs to also go in QRS].
iii. However, 2 base cavalry and cataphract BGs, and 4 base pikes BGs, do not count as columns.
16. Elephants:
i. Get 3 dice in Impact phase. [Needs to also go in QRS].
ii. Commanders cannot affect their re-rolls (likewise scythed chariots and, probably, artillery)
17. First three Cohesion Test modifiers altered to: [Needs to also go in QRS].
Battle group suffered at least 1 HP2B from shooting* or close combat** -1
Battle group testing for losing impact phase combat** -1
Battle group testing for losing melee phase combat in which it received at least 2 more hits than it inflicted** -1
[Note: The first change is intended to encourage larger battle groups – eg. 6 cavalry instead of 4, and so on, and benefit deeper foot formations. The second is to make the impact phase somewhat more decisive].
15. 90 degree turn and move: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). [Needs to also go in QRS].
16. 180 degree turn, move and turn again with a CMT, move reduced to 2MUs. It can be performed by single base deep non-shock cavalry and chariots as well as skirmishers. [Needs to also go in QRS].
17. 180 degree turn and move without a second turn: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). Single base deep non-shock cavalry and chariots can also do this if they pass a CMT. [Needs to also go in QRS].
18. Foot defending field fortifications need not pursue broken enemy. [Note that this means that foot behind portable defences will pursue enemy foot]
19. Shooting POAs changed: [Need to also go in QRS].
i. Shooting POA vs Unprotected Cavalry not in 1 rank reduced to +
ii. Shooting POA vs Protected Cavalry not in 1 rank removed.
iii. Shooting POA vs Armoured Cavalry not in 1 rank, and Armoured knights removed. [Note that it would be illogical to keep this for longbows if losing the + POA for bows vs Protected Cavalry. They had it before because of armour-piercing capability, not because of superior rate of fire over other bows.]
20. Cohesion Test: Battle troops get +1 modifier when testing for being shot at if shot at only by skirmishers. [This will need careful play-testing to make sure it does alter the balance too far against skirmishers.]. [Needs to also go in QRS].
21. Rear Support:
i. More than half an extra rank of bases beyond those that can normally contribute to melee combat (by dice or creating a POA) counts as rear support for Undrilled troops only.
ii. Bases from other BGs do not have to all be directly behind the supported BG – bases in edge contact with such bases also count.
22. Rout moves. After the initial rout, routers can
i. Shift up to 2 base widths to avoid friends etc.
ii. Pass through friendly drilled troops as a permitted interpenetration. [Hence they don’t drop cohesion].
[The above changes to rear support and rout moves should allow drilled armies to have proper second lines, as long as these are adequately separated, and avoid the need to put support troops in unhistorical columns]
23. Rallying routed troops. Routers can be rallied within 6 MUs of enemy if they have passed through steady friends who are now between them and the enemy. [There’s a bit more to the detailed wording, but this, together with the other changes above, should allow battles like Zama to be reproduced ]
24. 1 extra Brush added to Steppe territory. [We might add some more stuff later][Needs also to go in QRS]
25. Anti-Benny-Hilling: manoeuvre phase movement reduced by 1 MU if enemy in intercept range of flank/rear or within shooting range from behind.
CLARIFICATIONS (SO FAR) INCORPORATED IN FOG 2.0 BETA
1. Difficult forward move concept removed and replaced by wording in the CMT chart. [Needs to also go in QRS]
2. Intercepts clarified as per FAQ.
3. Clarified no JAP in last turn of time-limited game.
4. Terrain placement clarified as per FAQ.
5. Testing for shock troops not to charge clarified as per FAQ.
6. Shifting while evading clarified as per FAQ.
7. Clarified that skirmishers in close combat don’t test not to evade (and cannot evade) if charged by non-skirmishers – as per FAQ.
8. Clarified that routers don’t react to being charged – as per FAQ.
9. Clarified that terrain that only allows shooting in 1 rank prevents all shooting or support shooting from a 2nd or 3rd rank – as per FAQ. [However, FOGR specifies for these terrain types that they can only shoot with the first shooting rank. Should we adopt that for consistency?]
10. Clarified what moves or non-moves in the Manoeuvre Phase are or aren’t prevented by movement in the Impact Phase – as per FAQ.
11. “FEEDING MORE BASES INTO AN EXISTING MELEE” changed to “FEEDING MORE BASES INTO AN EXISTING CLOSE COMBAT” to clarify that it can happen in the Manoeuvre Phase following the Impact combat – as per the FAQ.
12. Clarification as per FAQ as to when a BG can expand in melee into contact with a new enemy BG.
13. Restricted area clarified as per FAQ. [Note that I have specified that forming ORB is allowed in the Restricted Area whether it involves a contraction or not – for simplicity’s sake and as per FOGR. The old FAQ answer was, as far as I can see, simply a fudge to conform to the v1.0 RAW. If you guys disagree this can of course be changed].
14. Terrain visibility effects clarified as per FAQ.
15. Defending FF clarified as per FAQ.
16. Ready Reckoner added as per FAQ. [I suggest also adding a BG break point ready reckoner chart – unless we simplify the breakpoints as Terry suggested]
17. Initial pursuits clarified as per FAQ.
18. Bolstering clarified as per FAQ.
19. “See X” items and italicised items changed to Bold Italics as per FOGR.
20. Clarified that you test for straggling before BG is placed on table.
21. Interpenetration of ambush markers clarified as per FAQ.
22. Clarified that troops who pursue into contact cannot break off before fighting a combat – as per FAQ.
23. Sacking camps clarified as per FAQ.
24. Turning BWg 90 degrees clarified.
Please excuse the lack of formatting:
ARMY LIST CHANGES
For this phase of beta testing please make the following alterations to existing lists:
1. All Roman troops which currently have Skilled Swordsman capability instead have Swordsmen capability and cost 1 point less.
SUBSTANTIVE RULES CHANGES (SO FAR) INCORPORATED IN FOG 2.0 BETA
1. All Roman troops which currently have Skilled Swordsman capability instead have Swordsmen capability and cost 1 point less.
2. Maximum army break point of total points/50. [This could be 60 if 50 is not thought stringent enough, but 50 is an easier calculation]
3. Lost C-in-C counts as 1 Attrition Point towards army break point.
4. Evading troops cannot turn at any table edge to avoid evading off the table. [Note, however, that they can still shift up to 1 base width or drop back bases if that allows them to avoid leaving the table].
5. Evading troops leaving the table must take a CMT. If they pass they count as 1 attrition point, if they fail they count as 2.
6. Teleport interpenetrations and leapfrog interpenetrations removed.
7. No wheel or double wheel can exceed a total of 90 degrees.
8. Wheel in a charge must be at the start of the charge and is declared before any charge responses are declared.
9. Armoured knights move 5 MUs in open. [Needs to also go in QRS]
10. HF move 4 MUs in open when more than 6 MUs from enemy. [Needs to also go in QRS]
11. The player winning the pre-battle initiative roll can choose whether to keep the initiative or pass it over to his opponent. (Thus getting to move first).
12. Roads placed last during terrain set-up so that they cannot be used to block other terrain placement.
13. Flank and rear charges separately defined.
14. Autobreak points changed: Superior now break on same losses as Average. [Major play-testing required. Ready reckoner may still be useful]
15. Columns:
i. Kinked columns cannot charge or intercept.
ii. All columns suffer a -1 POA in close combat. [Needs to also go in QRS].
iii. However, 2 base cavalry and cataphract BGs, and 4 base pikes BGs, do not count as columns.
16. Elephants:
i. Get 3 dice in Impact phase. [Needs to also go in QRS].
ii. Commanders cannot affect their re-rolls (likewise scythed chariots and, probably, artillery)
17. First three Cohesion Test modifiers altered to: [Needs to also go in QRS].
Battle group suffered at least 1 HP2B from shooting* or close combat** -1
Battle group testing for losing impact phase combat** -1
Battle group testing for losing melee phase combat in which it received at least 2 more hits than it inflicted** -1
[Note: The first change is intended to encourage larger battle groups – eg. 6 cavalry instead of 4, and so on, and benefit deeper foot formations. The second is to make the impact phase somewhat more decisive].
15. 90 degree turn and move: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). [Needs to also go in QRS].
16. 180 degree turn, move and turn again with a CMT, move reduced to 2MUs. It can be performed by single base deep non-shock cavalry and chariots as well as skirmishers. [Needs to also go in QRS].
17. 180 degree turn and move without a second turn: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). Single base deep non-shock cavalry and chariots can also do this if they pass a CMT. [Needs to also go in QRS].
18. Foot defending field fortifications need not pursue broken enemy. [Note that this means that foot behind portable defences will pursue enemy foot]
19. Shooting POAs changed: [Need to also go in QRS].
i. Shooting POA vs Unprotected Cavalry not in 1 rank reduced to +
ii. Shooting POA vs Protected Cavalry not in 1 rank removed.
iii. Shooting POA vs Armoured Cavalry not in 1 rank, and Armoured knights removed. [Note that it would be illogical to keep this for longbows if losing the + POA for bows vs Protected Cavalry. They had it before because of armour-piercing capability, not because of superior rate of fire over other bows.]
20. Cohesion Test: Battle troops get +1 modifier when testing for being shot at if shot at only by skirmishers. [This will need careful play-testing to make sure it does alter the balance too far against skirmishers.]. [Needs to also go in QRS].
21. Rear Support:
i. More than half an extra rank of bases beyond those that can normally contribute to melee combat (by dice or creating a POA) counts as rear support for Undrilled troops only.
ii. Bases from other BGs do not have to all be directly behind the supported BG – bases in edge contact with such bases also count.
22. Rout moves. After the initial rout, routers can
i. Shift up to 2 base widths to avoid friends etc.
ii. Pass through friendly drilled troops as a permitted interpenetration. [Hence they don’t drop cohesion].
[The above changes to rear support and rout moves should allow drilled armies to have proper second lines, as long as these are adequately separated, and avoid the need to put support troops in unhistorical columns]
23. Rallying routed troops. Routers can be rallied within 6 MUs of enemy if they have passed through steady friends who are now between them and the enemy. [There’s a bit more to the detailed wording, but this, together with the other changes above, should allow battles like Zama to be reproduced ]
24. 1 extra Brush added to Steppe territory. [We might add some more stuff later][Needs also to go in QRS]
25. Anti-Benny-Hilling: manoeuvre phase movement reduced by 1 MU if enemy in intercept range of flank/rear or within shooting range from behind.
CLARIFICATIONS (SO FAR) INCORPORATED IN FOG 2.0 BETA
1. Difficult forward move concept removed and replaced by wording in the CMT chart. [Needs to also go in QRS]
2. Intercepts clarified as per FAQ.
3. Clarified no JAP in last turn of time-limited game.
4. Terrain placement clarified as per FAQ.
5. Testing for shock troops not to charge clarified as per FAQ.
6. Shifting while evading clarified as per FAQ.
7. Clarified that skirmishers in close combat don’t test not to evade (and cannot evade) if charged by non-skirmishers – as per FAQ.
8. Clarified that routers don’t react to being charged – as per FAQ.
9. Clarified that terrain that only allows shooting in 1 rank prevents all shooting or support shooting from a 2nd or 3rd rank – as per FAQ. [However, FOGR specifies for these terrain types that they can only shoot with the first shooting rank. Should we adopt that for consistency?]
10. Clarified what moves or non-moves in the Manoeuvre Phase are or aren’t prevented by movement in the Impact Phase – as per FAQ.
11. “FEEDING MORE BASES INTO AN EXISTING MELEE” changed to “FEEDING MORE BASES INTO AN EXISTING CLOSE COMBAT” to clarify that it can happen in the Manoeuvre Phase following the Impact combat – as per the FAQ.
12. Clarification as per FAQ as to when a BG can expand in melee into contact with a new enemy BG.
13. Restricted area clarified as per FAQ. [Note that I have specified that forming ORB is allowed in the Restricted Area whether it involves a contraction or not – for simplicity’s sake and as per FOGR. The old FAQ answer was, as far as I can see, simply a fudge to conform to the v1.0 RAW. If you guys disagree this can of course be changed].
14. Terrain visibility effects clarified as per FAQ.
15. Defending FF clarified as per FAQ.
16. Ready Reckoner added as per FAQ. [I suggest also adding a BG break point ready reckoner chart – unless we simplify the breakpoints as Terry suggested]
17. Initial pursuits clarified as per FAQ.
18. Bolstering clarified as per FAQ.
19. “See X” items and italicised items changed to Bold Italics as per FOGR.
20. Clarified that you test for straggling before BG is placed on table.
21. Interpenetration of ambush markers clarified as per FAQ.
22. Clarified that troops who pursue into contact cannot break off before fighting a combat – as per FAQ.
23. Sacking camps clarified as per FAQ.
24. Turning BWg 90 degrees clarified.
Last edited by rbodleyscott on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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peterrjohnston
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No surprises except this, which I think is a disaster for infantry armies, unless how PBI is calculated is changed as well.rbodleyscott wrote: 11. The player winning the pre-battle initiative roll can choose whether to keep the initiative or pass it over to his opponent. (Thus getting to move first).
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rbodleyscott
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We are proposing such additional changes, but have not yet fully formulated them.peterrjohnston wrote:No surprises except this, which I think is a disaster for infantry armies, unless how PBI is calculated is changed as well.rbodleyscott wrote: 11. The player winning the pre-battle initiative roll can choose whether to keep the initiative or pass it over to his opponent. (Thus getting to move first).
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nikgaukroger
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Radical approach for a war gamerrpayne wrote:I like 95% of this, but it'll be good to get some test games in before whining about the 5% I don't like
Nik Gaukroger
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
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nikgaukroger
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david53 wrote:Seems a bit harsh for Cavalry this since IMO manovoure is what makes FOG a good ruleset.rbodleyscott wrote: 15. 90 degree turn and move: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). [Needs to also go in
Should I be surprised at this knee-jerk reaction from somebody called Dave? Just play test it, that's what the testing period is for
Nik Gaukroger
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
If legions are forced to fight and be organized in six's then pikes become even more manuaerable than legions, and they already started out with an advantage (since an 8 base BG can change facing 90 degress and remain in formation). Personally, I would be happy to see pikes foced to be organized in 12-16 base blocks. In addition, I would prohibit or severely restrict pikes making a 90 degree formation change.ii. All columns suffer a -1 POA in close combat. [Needs to also go in QRS].
iii. However, 2 base cavalry and cataphract BGs, and 4 base pikes BGs, do not count as columns.
Last edited by Delbruck on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lets wait till we have the real rules and wordings before picking this apart. I imagine this is not the actual document and just RBS giving us something to think about while we wait on JDM.ethan wrote:Might want to clariify if commander's CMT bonus counts for the troops evading off the table roll. Do they roll right before they go off which would seem to suggest it does or after they are off which would suggest it doesn't?
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GHGAustin
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How is it they are forced to be in 6s? There may be more incentives, but does not look like they are forced.Delbruck wrote:If legions are forced to fight and be organized in six's then pikes become even more manuaerable than legions, and they already started out with an advantage (since an 8 base BG can change facing 90 degress and remain in formation). Personally, I would be happy to see pikes foced to be organized in 12-16 base blocks. In addition, I would prohibit or severely restrict pikes making a 90 degree formation change.ii. All columns suffer a -1 POA in close combat. [Needs to also go in QRS].
iii. However, 2 base cavalry and cataphract BGs, and 4 base pikes BGs, do not count as columns.
That being said, I also think that with rare exception, such as Hypaspists, Agyraspides, etc., that pike should be in 12 - 16 blocks. Or maybe allow all Alexander's to be in 8s, while all Successors go to 12 - 16. This then addresses the notion that Alexander's pike formations were more maneuverable. However, this may be moot with the limitation on half move after 90 degree turn, which takes a big tool out of the pike bag o' tricks.
My reading of this was wrong. It looks like columns are one base wide, not two. I assumed they were trying to restrict swarms by making two base wide formations count as column.How is it they are forced to be in 6s?
To some extent, but 8 base pikes still end up in a proper fighting formation.However, this may be moot with the limitation on half move after 90 degree turn, which takes a big tool out of the pike bag o' tricks.
I was going to go for the extra brush in the Steppe but I thought that would be too easy and much better left to other Daves.nikgaukroger wrote:david53 wrote:Seems a bit harsh for Cavalry this since IMO manovoure is what makes FOG a good ruleset.rbodleyscott wrote: 15. 90 degree turn and move: Advance limited to up to half normal move distance (rounded up). [Needs to also go in
Should I be surprised at this knee-jerk reaction from somebody called Dave? Just play test it, that's what the testing period is for
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shadowdragon
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Blathergut
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Blathergut
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21. Rear Support:
i. More than half an extra rank of bases beyond those that can normally contribute to melee combat (by dice or creating a POA) counts as rear support for Undrilled troops only.
So...undrilled Spanish in a 6pak, 2 wide, gives itself support even with a base loss? But an 8pak, 3 wide (2 in third rank) will lose the self-support upon a base loss?
i. More than half an extra rank of bases beyond those that can normally contribute to melee combat (by dice or creating a POA) counts as rear support for Undrilled troops only.
So...undrilled Spanish in a 6pak, 2 wide, gives itself support even with a base loss? But an 8pak, 3 wide (2 in third rank) will lose the self-support upon a base loss?