Here we are again!
After deciding that Fatimid Egypt will be the army I'll paint up for my girlfriend, she made a first attempt to compose an army.
I gave some advice but mainly it is her choice:
1 FC, 3 TC
2x4 Lancers (Cv, Sup, Arm, Lancers, Sw)
2x4 Mamluks (Cv, Sup, Arm, Bow, Sw)
2x9 'Abid al-shira (2/3 HF, Av, Prot, LS, Sw and 1/3 LF, Av, Unprot, Bow)
1x9 Sariraya (2/3 HF, Av, Prot, Def. Spear and 1/3 LF, Av, Unprot, Bow)
2x6 Armenian Archers (MF, Av, Prot, Bow)
1x6 Other Archers (LF, Av, Unprot, Bow)
1x4 Bedouin Cavalry (LH, Av, Unprot, Lancers, Sw)
1x4 Turcoman Cavalry (LH, Av, Unprot, Bow, Sw)
What doctrine (terrain, deployment, battle plan) would you choose for that army and why?
What tips for my girlfriend's army?
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philqw78
- Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
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Turn East and start to prayWhat doctrine (terrain, deployment, battle plan) would you choose for that army and why?
It is a very disjointed design. Very few of the troops can work in support of each other.
You Have
3 BG of protected HF. These will normally be left behind whilst your army tries to win elsewhere, or runs elsewhere.
2 BG of Lancers and 2 of Mamluks. These may work well, but will normally become seperated due to rash charges by the lancers.
2 BG of MF Bow. Roadkill as there is nothing to work with them in terrain and not enough LH or non-shock cav for them to work with
LH lance, nice if superior.
LH Bw Sw, not enough. Either None or 3 plus.
1xLF Bow. An excellent BG. Most people won't think it is worth chasing when there are so many other targets in the army.
As you may guess I really don't like it. More Lancer cavalry, or at least concentrate on some troop type and plan
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
Well, forget for a minute the usual tournament player approach.
It was important for her to have different troops and an interesting army. An army entirely composed of lancers, mamluks and LH, Bow isn't such an army.
Apart from that one can tell from the maxima how such an army may have looked like. We don't like building fantasy lists because they perform better.
It must be possible to have fun with even non-competitive army lists.
Because it is an army post-1074 (to be a historical matchup for my Normans played as Early Crusaders) we have to stick to the minima.
The 'abid HF and the MF, bow are minimum troops.
As only one BG of each seemed like a real target (unless you hide them on the base line and run away if something approaches) we decided to build a longer line.
It's even more realistic.
So, if you don't mind I took note of the fact that you don't like the army but no more. The question wasn't "How do you like the army?" but "What doctrine (terrain, deployment, battle plan) would you choose for that army and why?"
I would appreciate serious answers on that one.
It was important for her to have different troops and an interesting army. An army entirely composed of lancers, mamluks and LH, Bow isn't such an army.
Apart from that one can tell from the maxima how such an army may have looked like. We don't like building fantasy lists because they perform better.
It must be possible to have fun with even non-competitive army lists.
Because it is an army post-1074 (to be a historical matchup for my Normans played as Early Crusaders) we have to stick to the minima.
The 'abid HF and the MF, bow are minimum troops.
As only one BG of each seemed like a real target (unless you hide them on the base line and run away if something approaches) we decided to build a longer line.
It's even more realistic.
So, if you don't mind I took note of the fact that you don't like the army but no more. The question wasn't "How do you like the army?" but "What doctrine (terrain, deployment, battle plan) would you choose for that army and why?"
I would appreciate serious answers on that one.
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philqw78
- Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
- Posts: 8835
- Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: Manchester
OK then. If playing against Normans it will be a decent fight.
Terrain
Get some decent rough terrain down that you can, hopefully, dominate with your archers. Try to close the gap between the terrain to fit your HF in.
Battle Plan
Use the Mamluks and LH Bow to dominate the most open flank.
Use the Lance LH to slow the other, keeping out of the way of anything that shoots.
You must try to make the Norman Knights hit your line of HF peicemeal. The Def Sp will not perform to badly, however the LtSp guys will have a really tough time if they do not outnumber the normans when they hit. The LF should be used for this, LH if you can spare them.
Use the cavalry lancers as a punch force against the flanks of the Normans once their formation becomes disjointed. Using their faster movement to stay away from combat until this happens. If necessary they may have to be used as the anvil whilst the Mamluks hit the flanks, tempting the Kn forwards so that the Mamluks can get to the flanks.
Doctrine
Use manouver to break up the Norman line of knights. This should also separate them from any supporting foot.
But then "No plan survives contact with the enemy"
Terrain
Get some decent rough terrain down that you can, hopefully, dominate with your archers. Try to close the gap between the terrain to fit your HF in.
Battle Plan
Use the Mamluks and LH Bow to dominate the most open flank.
Use the Lance LH to slow the other, keeping out of the way of anything that shoots.
You must try to make the Norman Knights hit your line of HF peicemeal. The Def Sp will not perform to badly, however the LtSp guys will have a really tough time if they do not outnumber the normans when they hit. The LF should be used for this, LH if you can spare them.
Use the cavalry lancers as a punch force against the flanks of the Normans once their formation becomes disjointed. Using their faster movement to stay away from combat until this happens. If necessary they may have to be used as the anvil whilst the Mamluks hit the flanks, tempting the Kn forwards so that the Mamluks can get to the flanks.
Doctrine
Use manouver to break up the Norman line of knights. This should also separate them from any supporting foot.
But then "No plan survives contact with the enemy"
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
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footslogger
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footslogger
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hazelbark
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Re: What tips for my girlfriend's army?
The 3 HF side by side with a TC should deploy "off center" Preferably toward the the board edge with terrain.
The MF archers go into the terrain. * Note 2nd option is to put the MF archers in the middle of the army as bait. The knights will try and likely succeed in blasting through, but they wont' return in time while the rest of her army falls upon the rest of the Normans.
The LF go straight out in front of the knights. Start a TC with them and the LH and then go start taunting the Norman cavarly to charge and get disjointed.
The CV should sit on the wings and potentially one Mamluk in front to keep drawing the knights forward. Then the remaining CV swing in upon the KN's flank.
Always committ a TC to the HF as the Knights come in for an impact. The re-rolls give you a real chance to beat the knights at impact. Also consider one MF bow 8 MU behind the HF in column acorss the joint so it supplies rear support to two units.
Tell her think of the HF units as one arm extended and she should put those in your mouned units face every chance. Then once you start to get ready to assualt, bring the mounted force in from the flanks to potentially catch your knights in the flank.
If the Normans dismount and are marching armoured HF into the Fatimd HF, then do the same think with he Lancers and have the lancers coutner attack the norman HF. Use the LF and LH to distract and draw off the Knights. Even be willing to let one unit get hit byt he knights as they will prusue out of position and undrilled may not get back to the fight in time.
Have her be aggressive about committing her TCs to impact whenever the POA is even as the re-rolls will be what allows her to beat your charges.
The MF archers go into the terrain. * Note 2nd option is to put the MF archers in the middle of the army as bait. The knights will try and likely succeed in blasting through, but they wont' return in time while the rest of her army falls upon the rest of the Normans.
The LF go straight out in front of the knights. Start a TC with them and the LH and then go start taunting the Norman cavarly to charge and get disjointed.
The CV should sit on the wings and potentially one Mamluk in front to keep drawing the knights forward. Then the remaining CV swing in upon the KN's flank.
Always committ a TC to the HF as the Knights come in for an impact. The re-rolls give you a real chance to beat the knights at impact. Also consider one MF bow 8 MU behind the HF in column acorss the joint so it supplies rear support to two units.
Tell her think of the HF units as one arm extended and she should put those in your mouned units face every chance. Then once you start to get ready to assualt, bring the mounted force in from the flanks to potentially catch your knights in the flank.
If the Normans dismount and are marching armoured HF into the Fatimd HF, then do the same think with he Lancers and have the lancers coutner attack the norman HF. Use the LF and LH to distract and draw off the Knights. Even be willing to let one unit get hit byt he knights as they will prusue out of position and undrilled may not get back to the fight in time.
Have her be aggressive about committing her TCs to impact whenever the POA is even as the re-rolls will be what allows her to beat your charges.
Congratulations on daring to play historical and go to war with the army you got
HF TC fight in the front rank of the defensive Spear, of course. Agreed that basic doctrine is that her horse doesn't fight yours head on, but disrupts, disorganizes or distracts the Knights, then take them on in an unfair fight and/or pick off easier targets elsewhere. Provoking uncontrolled charges and evasive tactics should also be on the menu - it requires some nice tactics so should be fun. I'd like to see more LF in the list.
Sacrificing a BG to get a couple of Knight BGs to pursue past her line (where they can be left to slowly turn about and return or can be hit in flank or rear, if she is ready) would be a nice thing to pull off but requires a rather unimaginative Norman.
For order of march, I would encourage her to experiment with practice. The big decision is whether or not to delay deployment of the HF in order to make it harder for the Norman deployment. Usually they would deploy together so would be together in the order of march. Group 2 would be typical and sound, group 3 allows better matching up where there are practical alternative deployments for both sides. I might try splitting them with the Def Spear in a later deployment group to allow her to respond to where the Knights deploy. For example LF/LH in #1, 1 Armenian and 2 'Abid al-shira in #2, 1 Lancer and 2 Mamluks in #3, and 1 Mamluk, 1 Armenian and the Sariraya in #4. The rule that MF go down last is somewhat relevant, but I like to be able to use the last group to shift the weight of the army and define the final plan. This kind of incremental deployment strategy offers advantages with good planning and enough on-table terrain/deployment drill to make sure everything "fits" in the end. A more conventional order would be Lights first, then the HF, then the cavalry and archers.
I hope these bits are useful.
HF TC fight in the front rank of the defensive Spear, of course. Agreed that basic doctrine is that her horse doesn't fight yours head on, but disrupts, disorganizes or distracts the Knights, then take them on in an unfair fight and/or pick off easier targets elsewhere. Provoking uncontrolled charges and evasive tactics should also be on the menu - it requires some nice tactics so should be fun. I'd like to see more LF in the list.
Sacrificing a BG to get a couple of Knight BGs to pursue past her line (where they can be left to slowly turn about and return or can be hit in flank or rear, if she is ready) would be a nice thing to pull off but requires a rather unimaginative Norman.
For order of march, I would encourage her to experiment with practice. The big decision is whether or not to delay deployment of the HF in order to make it harder for the Norman deployment. Usually they would deploy together so would be together in the order of march. Group 2 would be typical and sound, group 3 allows better matching up where there are practical alternative deployments for both sides. I might try splitting them with the Def Spear in a later deployment group to allow her to respond to where the Knights deploy. For example LF/LH in #1, 1 Armenian and 2 'Abid al-shira in #2, 1 Lancer and 2 Mamluks in #3, and 1 Mamluk, 1 Armenian and the Sariraya in #4. The rule that MF go down last is somewhat relevant, but I like to be able to use the last group to shift the weight of the army and define the final plan. This kind of incremental deployment strategy offers advantages with good planning and enough on-table terrain/deployment drill to make sure everything "fits" in the end. A more conventional order would be Lights first, then the HF, then the cavalry and archers.
I hope these bits are useful.
I play similar armies quite a lot, and whilst early on I worried excessively about trying to engineer the perfect matchups, ultimately I decided it didn't really feel right, you end up with some funny and a historical deployments, and in fact it's not even very productive. Even as a non-tournamnet player, if you are treating a large chunk of your battle-line troops as a liability that have to be kept out of harm's way, it suggests you don't believe in the army and should be trying something else
So HF down early. Lights down first is fine, although if my lights are limited I sometimes like to keep them till later as I may want the option of e.g. decide whether LF they are needed to support stuff on the flanks or slow enemy advance in centre. So often it's HF first, and let the enemy decide whether to view them as a target or not. If they do, they are still solid enough to require a significant force of good troops to take advantage, and that means I try to win on the flanks. If the enemy tries to avoid them, then I just have to start wheeling stuff to make it relevant again. This could fall down badly against someone who puts a couple of BGs of LF in front of your HF, and the rest of his army far out on the flank(s), but I've never found that to be an issue in friendly games.
So HF down early. Lights down first is fine, although if my lights are limited I sometimes like to keep them till later as I may want the option of e.g. decide whether LF they are needed to support stuff on the flanks or slow enemy advance in centre. So often it's HF first, and let the enemy decide whether to view them as a target or not. If they do, they are still solid enough to require a significant force of good troops to take advantage, and that means I try to win on the flanks. If the enemy tries to avoid them, then I just have to start wheeling stuff to make it relevant again. This could fall down badly against someone who puts a couple of BGs of LF in front of your HF, and the rest of his army far out on the flank(s), but I've never found that to be an issue in friendly games.
