In WW2 Bulgaria never declared war on Russia and the Russians even kept an embassy in Sofia. In CEaW it seems common practice to use Bulgarian corps in the East (even if they are not very good).
The Bulgarians did declare war on Yugoslavia, Greece and the western allies with the main focus of operations being the Balkans.
They joined the war to share in he spoils of a destroyed Yugoslavia - they swithched sides near the end of the war when Russian troops entered there Borders and declared war on the Bulgarians.
Can this be simulated more effectively in CEaW by Bulgaria not activating at all unless Yugoslavia is invaded (and then only half the units become available). More units are activated when Greece is invaded.
They where interestingly the only Axis allied country to have increased it's Borders by the end of the war. I think Slovakia should have a corps unit available.
On the Bulgarian side I see no reason for them not to be used against the west but maybe have a house rule against use in the east?
Bulgaria
Moderators: firepowerjohan, rkr1958, Happycat, Slitherine Core
Re: Bulgaria
Below are excerpts from the GSv2.00 Beta Developer and Change Log Notes on this subject.afk_nero wrote:In WW2 Bulgaria never declared war on Russia and the Russians even kept an embassy in Sofia. In CEaW it seems common practice to use Bulgarian corps in the East (even if they are not very good).
The Bulgarians did declare war on Yugoslavia, Greece and the western allies with the main focus of operations being the Balkans.
They joined the war to share in he spoils of a destroyed Yugoslavia - they swithched sides near the end of the war when Russian troops entered there Borders and declared war on the Bulgarians.
Can this be simulated more effectively in CEaW by Bulgaria not activating at all unless Yugoslavia is invaded (and then only half the units become available). More units are activated when Greece is invaded.
They where interestingly the only Axis allied country to have increased it's Borders by the end of the war. I think Slovakia should have a corps unit available.
On the Bulgarian side I see no reason for them not to be used against the west but maybe have a house rule against use in the east?
"VII. Tension in the Balkans.
Because of the tension in Balkans between German axis minors and Yugoslavia or Greece these axis minors will defend their borders against these countries unless they are pacified (i.e., invaded) by Germany or Italy. Also, axis minors will activate earlier than expected if the axis invades the Balkans prior to their normal activation times.
Romania and Hungary will join the Axis the turn Yugoslavia is DoW'ed and Bulgaria will join the turn Greece is DoW'ed. So it's possible to speed up the activation of these countries by an earlier DoW. This means an axis player might declare war on Yugoslavia from Austria and Italy and rail reinforcements to Hungary and Romania on that turn (e. g. in August 1940). Remember that the countries joining will NOT move on the turn they join. So the player will probably need two turns to take out Belgrade. It also becomes more attractive to take out Greece from the north since a player can take out Yugoslavia in August / September and move adjacent to Greece to march to Athens in maybe September / October. Weather is always nice down there. A seaborne invasion of Greece was the only way to secure Greece early enough because a player never got through Yugoslavia in time.
One Hungarian and two Romania infantry corps are removed from their initial countries setup and will be spawned on the turn that the axis player declares war on Yugoslavia. If this never happens then these three infantry corps are assumed to be assigned to home defense until released in July 1943 (see 4).
Two Bulgarian infantry corps are removed for Bulgaria’s initial setup and will be spawned on the turn that the axis player declares war on Greece. If this never happens then these two infantry corps are assumed to be assigned to home defense until release in July 1943 (see 4).
The Axis minor units that were kept for protection against Yugoslavia and Greece will be released on July 1943 if they weren't released before from activating Yugoslavia and Greece. This simulates that the threat from Russia increases so these units might do more good protecting their borders against Russia than the borders against Yugoslavia and Greece. So a player won't permanently lose these units if they decide to never DoW Yugoslavia and Greece. Also remember that the units will spawn if the ALLIES DoW Yugoslavia and Greece."
There's also a change we made early on in playtesting that set a limit on how early Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria would join when Yugoslavia and Greece were invaded. I can't remember the exact date but it was set to sometime in late fall of 1940. This was to prevent the axis player from DOW'ing these two countries in say 1939 and using them to take out Yugoslavia and Greece unopposed since UK forces in the Med are pretty much locked down until Italy enters in May/June 1940 and Egypt/Iraq in August 1940.
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joerock22
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That's interesting; I never knew that about Bulgarian history. But I see a few problems with your proposals:
1. Nobody wants to play with house rules, especially in the final version of GS 2.0.
2. For the Axis, not invading Yugoslavia is still an option, even though some Axis minor troops will not spawn until later (they stay home to protect the borders). Linking Bulgarian entry to a DOW on Yugoslavia makes this not really an option anymore. Almost everyone will invade Yugoslavia to get Bulgaria to enter the war. For gameplay's sake, I prefer to give the player a meaningful choice as to whether to do this.
3. Back to not using Bulgarian troops in the east, this was a choice by King Boris. Personally, I don't think we should trap the player into this choice. The game isn't about being 100% historical; it's about giving the player freedom to do as he wants within a reasonably historical framework. Keeping Bulgarian troops out of Russia is too restrictive and takes away from gameplay, I feel.
1. Nobody wants to play with house rules, especially in the final version of GS 2.0.
2. For the Axis, not invading Yugoslavia is still an option, even though some Axis minor troops will not spawn until later (they stay home to protect the borders). Linking Bulgarian entry to a DOW on Yugoslavia makes this not really an option anymore. Almost everyone will invade Yugoslavia to get Bulgaria to enter the war. For gameplay's sake, I prefer to give the player a meaningful choice as to whether to do this.
3. Back to not using Bulgarian troops in the east, this was a choice by King Boris. Personally, I don't think we should trap the player into this choice. The game isn't about being 100% historical; it's about giving the player freedom to do as he wants within a reasonably historical framework. Keeping Bulgarian troops out of Russia is too restrictive and takes away from gameplay, I feel.
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Blathergut
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The problem with this is that its not really supported by historical fact. Romania and Hungary joined the Axis in Nov of 1940. Germany, Italy and Hungary invaded Yugoslavia in April of 1941. Neither Bulgaria or Romania were involved in the initial assualt on Yugoslavia providing occupational troops only after Yugoslavia and Greece had surrendered. Also as I'm sure most are aware that Yugoslavia joined the Tripartite Pact in March of 1941, signed by Prince Paul who was assasinated 2 days later in pro Allied coup. However, the new military ruler, General Simovic, did not renounce the treaty and seems to me tried to play both sides of the fence. http://www.essortment.com/all/wwiiyugoslavia_rnso.htm
Either way I don't think its a very good idea to pin Hungary and Romania's war entry on an axis DOW of Yugoslavia it really doesn't make historical sense.
Either way I don't think its a very good idea to pin Hungary and Romania's war entry on an axis DOW of Yugoslavia it really doesn't make historical sense.
Hi Joe,
I too am looking forward to the 2.0 release and I do love the game - I do understand as well that there are some historical limitations that are not practicle to adhere to - however as Bulgaria never declared war vrs the USSR then they have no precendence at all to be represented as such, Despite huge pressure from Germany to do so they never committed troops.
As CEaW does not work with any political aspects (nor would i want it to) I do find it unrealistic. It is like having the Swiss in on the war (there was some air combat between the swiss and the americans), although possible and would be an interesting twist - it was not a reality.
I agree that we do not want to constrain the possibilities and tactics used in the game - i do find it an excellent game and the work being done on improving this is to be appluaded by everyone, this is however just a suggestion to help add to the reality of the game.
On the flip side - the Slovakians did make a significant contribution with about a corps being provided (as well as security units), they even had an armoured brigade and a small airforce (both too small to be represented here). Why not change one of the Bulgarian corps to a Slovak one and if the invasion of Greece and Yugo happens then more units are released.
The potential practicalities of stopping a player using the Bulgarians outside of the Balkans (and possibly the west - where they didnt fight but where at least at war with) may make this difficult especially when the Axis need every force available at his disposal to hold back the hordes.
I am trying to add in my small suggestion - this in no way impairs my love of the game, however it doesnt mean that it is correct to have totally ahistorical forces opposing each other.
I too am looking forward to the 2.0 release and I do love the game - I do understand as well that there are some historical limitations that are not practicle to adhere to - however as Bulgaria never declared war vrs the USSR then they have no precendence at all to be represented as such, Despite huge pressure from Germany to do so they never committed troops.
As CEaW does not work with any political aspects (nor would i want it to) I do find it unrealistic. It is like having the Swiss in on the war (there was some air combat between the swiss and the americans), although possible and would be an interesting twist - it was not a reality.
I agree that we do not want to constrain the possibilities and tactics used in the game - i do find it an excellent game and the work being done on improving this is to be appluaded by everyone, this is however just a suggestion to help add to the reality of the game.
On the flip side - the Slovakians did make a significant contribution with about a corps being provided (as well as security units), they even had an armoured brigade and a small airforce (both too small to be represented here). Why not change one of the Bulgarian corps to a Slovak one and if the invasion of Greece and Yugo happens then more units are released.
The potential practicalities of stopping a player using the Bulgarians outside of the Balkans (and possibly the west - where they didnt fight but where at least at war with) may make this difficult especially when the Axis need every force available at his disposal to hold back the hordes.
I am trying to add in my small suggestion - this in no way impairs my love of the game, however it doesnt mean that it is correct to have totally ahistorical forces opposing each other.
Hungary and Romania will activate normally if Yugoslavia remains neutral. There's a small window in the fall of 1940 and before their normal activation date that they will join early if Yugoslavia is invaded. However; one Hungarian and two Romania infantry corps are removed for the old setup and are spawned (i.e., added back in) when Yugoslavia is invaded or in July 1943, whichever comes first. But the rest of the Hungary and Romania units are available upon normal activation (assuming a neutral Yugoslavia).Kuz wrote:Either way I don't think its a very good idea to pin Hungary and Romania's war entry on an axis DOW of Yugoslavia it really doesn't make historical sense.
I see. However, Yugoslavia was actually an axis parterner...even after the coup they never recended the treaty so assuming Germany never invades why would you garrison a boarder against an "ally". The country most the Balkan nations were concerned about especially in the case of Rumania and Hungary was the Soviet union not Yugoslavia. I don't think 3 units are going to make or break the game just interesting speculation. I would love to see some kind of randomness concerning Yugo but I guess thats beyond the capability of the game engine.Hungary and Romania will activate normally if Yugoslavia remains neutral.
I think a rule that prevented minors from being used outside of their sphere of interest would probably be supported by most of the community. I think back to most of the Grand strategy games I've played and I believe they all had some limitations on use of minors. I.E. Third Reich
You can probably look at the new rule in the sense that the invasion of Yugoslavia was a factor in getting the other Axis minors more involved. They also committed some troops to garrison against partisans in Yugoslavia and Greece. I think I'd leave limitations on Axis minor commitments to a houserule. It makes historical sense, but I don't think it has much of an effect on gameplay.
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Peter Stauffenberg
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There was an Allied coup in Yugoslavia just before the Germans attacked in April 1941. The main reason the Germans attacked Yugoslavia was to help the Italians in Greece after Yugoslavia suddenly turned anti-Axis.
Bulgaria is tied to Greece in GS v2.0. So if Greece is not attacked then Bulgaria will activate in the fall of 1941, but 2 corps will not activate until Summer 1943.
The rules are made to simulate the unstable Balkans. Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria all got territory in Yugoslavia after the Germans conquered Yugoslavia. So they had interest in Yugoslavia being conquered.
One reason for adding these events is that because of partisans many players selected to keep Greece and Yugoslavia neutral. But if they want full Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian support then all non Axis countries on the Balkans has to be conquered. This makes sure you have to consider whether you need more units for Barbarossa or less partisans to deal with.
Bulgaria is tied to Greece in GS v2.0. So if Greece is not attacked then Bulgaria will activate in the fall of 1941, but 2 corps will not activate until Summer 1943.
The rules are made to simulate the unstable Balkans. Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria all got territory in Yugoslavia after the Germans conquered Yugoslavia. So they had interest in Yugoslavia being conquered.
One reason for adding these events is that because of partisans many players selected to keep Greece and Yugoslavia neutral. But if they want full Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian support then all non Axis countries on the Balkans has to be conquered. This makes sure you have to consider whether you need more units for Barbarossa or less partisans to deal with.