Trade & Treachery II

[VMadeira]

Finally received my order, now I just have to wait for Clash of Empires

I wanted to leave a couple of observations/questions, which strike me, probably for lack of a better knowledge of the period, but would be grateful for a few insights:

- In the Italian Wars French army, from 1522, it is mandatory to mix in the same army Swiss and Landsknechts (if you want to include Swiss). I thought they were bitter enemies and find strange to put them in the same army, is this what happened in reality, did they fought side by side?

- After 13 FOG AM and 2 FOG R companions I find in the first list, Elite Gendarmes (I am considering Gendarmes equivalent to Knights)...I always thought, if there would be any Knight/Gendarme elite would be, some Military Orders, like the Knights of St. John, a single group of French Knights, in FOG AM (in their golden period, when they were considered the best cavalry in Europe), the Huguenot which had an outstanding cavalry highly praised even from turkish emissaries....
...I admit I have never heard of this Welsche Garde in the Maximilian army, where can I find some information about them? And by the way, were they really the best Knights / Gendarmes in history, to be the only ones to deserve Elite status?

[timmy1]

I really like T&T but there are some surprises.

Can't comment on the Welsche Garde but it does make that list even more appealing.

As for the Swiss and Landsknechts it does seem that after their performance in 1522 the Swiss were no longer in a postion to demand exclusivity and to have the Landsknechts excluded from French armies in which they served. However in 1522 there were no Landsknechts recorded in French service in Italy (at least none that I have come across in my 37 years of study of that army) so for that year only the list should allow Swiss and no Landsknechts (indeed it should mandate so - which is another thread). After that date it does seem common for both to be in the French army. Not sure if common enough to be mandatory that if you have Swiss you have Landsknechts but common enough that I can't grumble.

[VMadeira]

Thanks for your answer Timmy!

[azrael86]

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the renaissaince french, but the AM usage of elite and superior has been something of an issue for some time, and the poor treatment of the medieval French chivalry is only part of it.

Germanic knights, who, whilst noted swordsmen were never considered great horsemen (and indeed they used to be considered Average (or Regular C, as it was known)) are now as good as the French or the military orders.

[DanielS]

The Welsche Garde are simply Burgundians in Maximilians service, IIRC some 300 lances were known by that name. I suppose you could consider them the successors to Charles the Bolds guards.

The notion that German knights were poor is a classic case of how a fact related to a single part of a period has been stretched to cover the entire period. Another classic example is how the "Early/Medieval Burgundian" lists usually downgrade the Burgundian men-at-arms based on a single statement from 1465.

[azrael86]

Maybe so, but does anyone truly believe that the French weren't better?

[puster]

Maybe so, but does anyone truly believe that the French weren't better?

Why should the French be generally better?

Its not that the life or training of knights differed. The economical situation, however, differed and went from bad to worse for the majority of the German knights, who had a lot more problems with independent cities then their French counterparts.

On the Welsche Garde...
During the Swabian wars 1499 they seemed to be 1000 horses strong (demanding 6000 Gulden for upkeep).
They fought at Dornach where they probably lost their commander.
In 1504 they are described as 87 knights from France with 381 horse, when used largely without effect in support of a siege.

Seems that these were Knights going full time service in their own company in the service of Maximilian. While the rating seems justifyable, their free availability is probably over the top.