flank charging/turning clarification?

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:37 am

There was a thread a while back relating to who and how do bases turn when flank charged.

The specific example was 2 deep spearmen where both were contacted by two Mounted.

_ _ _ _ <
_ _ _ _ <

becomes

_ _ _ |<
_ _ _ |<
(basis = each base contacted MUST remain in contact)

or

_ _ _ <
_ _ _ ||<

There wast concensus so was wondering how this will be treated at the WIC?
(basis = bases turn as described in the turns section - ie end turn as wide as the were deep rounded down)

Solution two prevents people from angling to pull lines apart that woudl otherwise fight two deep but would meand that three deep pike where all are contacted would turn and be two bases wide

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:22 am

Not sure what consensus matters. Rules are clear. two deep spear are 30mm deep. So both bases turn (assuming no other contacts exist) Then the there is only one charger base to one turning base. The other will be overlap in melee.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:05 pm

hazelbark wrote:Not sure what consensus matters. Rules are clear. two deep spear are 30mm deep. So both bases turn (assuming no other contacts exist) Then the there is only one charger base to one turning base. The other will be overlap in melee.

But on page 167 in this exact situationthe rules say the opposite (two fighting bases in impact). They cant turn due to nearby enemy but "still fight with two bases".

I agree with you that they shoudl turn as per the rules on turning but it conflicts with the above ref.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:19 pm

expendablecinc wrote:But on page 167 in this exact situationthe rules say the opposite (two fighting bases in impact). They cant turn due to nearby enemy but "still fight with two bases".

I don't get why on p167 it says "As there is no space, due to the enemy Cavalry having charged the rear, they stay where they are." Visually, it looks to me that there is plenty of space to simply pick up the two MF bases and turn them 90 degrees; they would fit into the space perfectly, initially still touching both flanking cav bases. The two MF foot bases (not contacted to the front) should then be moved backwards slightly to maintain contact with their mates who are still facing forwards (page 56/57).

The cav bases should then be moved forward to maintain contact with the MF. However, only 1 cav base will be in contact with one MF base at impact, the second cav base now becoming an overlap and only fighting in the melee phase. So impact is one cav at ++ and one MF at --

I think the rule writers have simply made an error in this illustrative example (it does happen).

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:42 pm

My guess is that they can't turn in impact since the rear charging cav are blocking the turn. The Roman front is facing the top of the page so when turned the right hand legions would have their left base edge lined up with the front of their unit and they would end up where the rear cav currently occupy.
When conforming the rear cav will line up with the two bases to their front, then the right hand legions can turn 90 and face the flanking cav.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:42 pm

My guess is that they can't turn in impact since the rear charging cav are blocking the turn. The Roman front is facing the top of the page so when turned the right hand legions would have their left base edge lined up with the front of their unit and they would end up where the rear cav currently occupy.
When conforming the rear cav will line up with the two bases to their front, then the right hand legions can turn 90 and face the flanking cav.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:06 am

Actually, I have looked closer and I was wrong - its a pain trying to see exactly which way some of the bases are facing in the photo examples, especially with my one eyed sight.

The reason the MF can't turn is, as you say, they are facing up the page! They must turn on their front (top) edge and are not permitted to push the cav out of the way in so doing. Therefore, they don't turn.

Apologise and withdraw Mr Speaker!

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:40 am

I think I misunderstood the point of the question.
I thought it was how to handle the turning.
But it is really how many bases fight.

P91 may be helpful.

graym · Post by **graym** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:06 am

There had been some disagreement with the " turning to face as per a normal turn " being against the overall game concept with every matched base on impact actually fighting on impact.

In a variation of that scenario , if the flanked spear were already in fighting to their front when individually hit by a different cav only the rear spear could turn.
Which I assume would then allow 2 impact combats in this example.