Choice of 2 units

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:28 pm

I have a choice of 2 units to finish my list

1) 8 bases MF/Avg/Arm/undrilled/bow

or
2) 6 bases MF/Avg/Arm/undrilled/BW*/HW

The whole army is MF as it is a late Samurai list

Thoughts?
I will sit down and wait for my answer

Irondog

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:59 pm

It really depends upon how you plan to use the army?

My initial preference would be on the 6 Bow* HW guys - but depending on what you think you're going to be fighting the 8 bow could be very effective.

Against LH they'd be excellent.

Sorry to be unhelpful.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:39 pm

What job do you want the unit to do?

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:30 pm

My goal is to tear up or damage heavier foot (if possible) before I am forced to do melee with them with the bulk of my army which are either MF/Prot/Avg/undrilled/offensive spear and MF/Arm?Avg/undrilled/Bw*/HW. My only "hard hitters" are 2 units of 6 MF/arm/sup/undrilled/offensive spear.

I found I really have to roll well against HF. My only benefit is my units will be slightly larger than the standard 4 pack of Romans.

Irondog

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:57 pm

I'd go with the HW because they can support the spear, but if you can think of something better to do with bow go for that.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:42 am

irondog068 wrote:My goal is to tear up or damage heavier foot (if possible) before I am forced to do melee with them with the bulk of my army which are either MF/Prot/Avg/undrilled/offensive spear and MF/Arm?Avg/undrilled/Bw*/HW. My only "hard hitters" are 2 units of 6 MF/arm/sup/undrilled/offensive spear.

I found I really have to roll well against HF. My only benefit is my units will be slightly larger than the standard 4 pack of Romans.

Irondog

So, if the main purpose is to damage enemy HF, the Bow only guys aren't much help. I would take the HW guys. That will give you another unit that can engage armoured enemy foot.

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:13 pm

Looking at your signature block, I am assuming this is for your 28mm Army. So, I would recommend the HW as well. You may have less maneuver room and therefore harder to setup the bow - given the other bow units in your army that will already be struggling for firing arcs.

Bill

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Well,
I am almost done with my 15mm Samurai army.

Does this change your thoughts or should I go with the HW? Mind you I only have 1 cavalry unit and I may also have to deal with more shooty armies.

Irondog

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:27 pm

One unit will not change your army enough for shooty armies not to be a problem.
The MF spear should be able to cope with shooty cav.

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:28 pm

thanks for the help,
Soon as my 2 dragons order comes in I can try both options.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:15 pm

irondog068 wrote:thanks for the help,
Soon as my 2 dragons order comes in I can try both options.

Be interesting to see how you get on. I have this army in 15mm but believe it to be almost unusable. I am waiting for colonies and conquest to see if the renaissance version is viable.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:21 am

I have this army in 15mm but believe it to be almost unusable.

Your post prompted me to have a good look at this list and I thank I can see what you mean.

It appears very vulnerable to lancers - and with no skirmishers of its own will struggle to delay on a flank. Hard to see how you could put together a cohesive battle plan given troop types available - particualrly in a competition where you are likely to face a lot of air and grit armies - most of which you won't be able to catch.

Personally I'd take an IC and as much Cav as I could get.

Hopefully should work better in 25mm - depending upon the table size - best of luck!

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:37 pm

petedalby wrote:
I have this army in 15mm but believe it to be almost unusable.
Your post prompted me to have a good look at this list and I thank I can see what you mean.

It appears very vulnerable to lancers - and with no skirmishers of its own will struggle to delay on a flank. Hard to see how you could put together a cohesive battle plan given troop types available - particualrly in a competition where you are likely to face a lot of air and grit armies - most of which you won't be able to catch.

Personally I'd take an IC and as much Cav as I could get.

Hopefully should work better in 25mm - depending upon the table size - best of luck!

It's not just the lack of skirmishers - late samurai has never had much in the way of light stuff. The combination of MF, undrilled, average with Bw* and hvy weapon is pretty much doomed - not to say that undrilled average is odd for the nation who developed Bushido.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:59 pm

azrael86 wrote: It's not just the lack of skirmishers - late samurai has never had much in the way of light stuff. The combination of MF, undrilled, average with Bw* and hvy weapon is pretty much doomed - not to say that undrilled average is odd for the nation who developed Bushido.

It may interest that the Later Heian list is one I have in my sights for a possible v2 list - being more generous with the quality gradings being a possibility.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:53 pm

The other issue that struck me with this list Nik, is that a minimum of 24 MF Bushi is quite a high complusory figure.

If you take detached Bushi - and their additional BG of detached followers - shouldn't that reduce your 24? They're the same troops but deployed in a different way? So make it an upgrade option rather than additional Bushi?

And of course we all know that Samurai should really be Elite / Superior Armoured Impact Foot with a Bow rather than Bow* and Skilled Swordsmen to boot

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:27 pm

petedalby wrote:The other issue that struck me with this list Nik, is that a minimum of 24 MF Bushi is quite a high complusory figure.

If you take detached Bushi - and their additional BG of detached followers - shouldn't that reduce your 24? They're the same troops but deployed in a different way? So make it an upgrade option rather than additional Bushi?

Possibly.

And of course we all know that Samurai should really be Elite / Superior Armoured Impact Foot with a Bow rather than Bow* and Skilled Swordsmen to boot

That will be available in the limited edition list book that can be purchased direct from me for a suitable consideration ...

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:48 pm

The only way I can see this army working is with fortifications to protect a flank and being lucky with initiative and terrain.

I might give it a go some time.....if someone will lend me the figures?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:23 pm

I'll lend you them for Britcon Pete, or any comp I'm attending.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:58 pm

petedalby wrote: And of course we all know that Samurai should really be Elite / Superior Armoured Impact Foot with a Bow rather than Bow* and Skilled Swordsmen to boot

...Longbow.

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:10 pm

with a 28mm Samurai army 1 beat a late republic Roman army by a fair margin, got creamed by a a second late republic roman army (it is impossible to beat elite romans). and pulverized a Mid republic Roman army.

One change for the later as we near the time of age of country of war is Samurai go away from the yumi (bow) and more toward yari (offensive spear/light lance in FOG).

I do not think more than 1 samurai unit should be elite (hatamato). I would lean more toward Samurai MF/Superior/offensive spear. Just more of them or allow some of the mixed Samurai to be upgraded from average to superior.

To me it makes more scene than upgrading the armor.