Battle of Barnet, 1471

[stockwellpete]

Another very important Wars of the Roses battle that was fought in the fog at Barnet . . .

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15461007/Battle ... 201471.rar

[stockwellpete]

Updated.

[stockwellpete]

I spent a fascinating afternoon yesterday on a guided tour of the Barnet battlefield. As you may know there is some controversy over the actual siting of the battlefield and our host for the afternoon explained to us the current state of play regarding archaeological exploration while he was walking us round.

With regards to the scenario that I have made, our guide made a compelling case for Richard, Duke of Gloucester (the future Richard III) being in command of the left flank of the Yorkist army, rather than the right flank as I have depicted it (from Seymour's "Battles of Britain", published in 1975). Also, the land on the right of the Yorkist position (left of the Lancastrian) drops away much more sharply than I have it in my scenario. Otherwise, I haven't done too bad.

"Two Men in a Trench" went to Barnet a few years ago. You can see the programme here . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqxSdZ7b ... tube_gdata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAzyLlE_ ... re=related

Apparently, the Battlefield Trust (UK) is seeking to do excavations at Wrotham Park to see if the battlefield was there, but the land is owned by the descendants of Admiral Byng (shot for disobeying orders) and the current incumbent is a bit of a "nimby" (might have to shoot him as well then ). Another interesting site for excavation is the gloriously named "Dead Man's Bottom", where many of the bodies from the battle are thought to be buried. It was going to be excavated a few years ago but the "foot and mouth" outbreak led to the field being closed.

[ZeaBed]

Interesting take on the battle by the tour guide, as I've also read accounts placing Gloucester plugging on the right, even as Hastings's men were being chased off the Yorkist left wing all the way to Barnet. The clarification is significant. But please don't go bang on that Byng. We all need you here.

BTW, I clicked on the dropbox link and got the spidery box informing me that the page I was looking for could not be found. I can't tell whether the problem is with my computer connection or with dropbox.

[stockwellpete]

Interesting take on the battle by the tour guide, as I've also read accounts placing Gloucester plugging on the right, even as Hastings's men were being chased off the Yorkist left wing all the way to Barnet. The clarification is significant. But please don't go bang on that Byng. We all need you here.

It is something that I will check up on in the next few days - I think that I have read in more than one account that Gloucester was on the right flank.

BTW, I clicked on the dropbox link and got the spidery box informing me that the page I was looking for could not be found. I can't tell whether the problem is with my computer connection or with dropbox.

I have edited the link so it should work ok now. Sorry about that.

[ZeaBed]

Thank you Pete. I've too found Barnet a very interesting WotR battle, along with Towton and Tewkesbury of course. Too bad no contemporary portrait of The Kingmaker has survived. We don't know how that Neville looked like.

[stockwellpete]

Thank you Pete. I've too found Barnet a very interesting WotR battle, along with Towton and Tewkesbury of course. Too bad no contemporary portrait of The Kingmaker has survived. We don't know how that Neville looked like.

Well, he looked a lot better in the morning than he did in the evening!!

I also used this when researching my scenarios for WotR . . .

“William, Lord Hastings commanded the left wing opposite Oxford's own division, Edward himself commanded the centre division, whilst his brother Richard, Duke of Gloucester commanded the right opposite Exeter's division.”

http://www.warsoftheroses.co.uk/chapter_70.htm
http://www.warsoftheroses.co.uk/toc.htm

[ZeaBed]

Precisely. I've read several accounts and they all place Dickie III on the right.

I bet Warwick didn't look like the wax figure of himself getting accoutred for battle in that Barnet museum. He shouldn't have left his battle charger that far back behind his lines. With that heavy armor he never had a chance to make good an escape on foot. What a character he was. I recently read a fairly recent book (comparatively speaking) on the WotR by a historical writer who is also a battlefield guide, and he also puts Gloucester on the right. He's the chap who wrote that book about English-Scottish conflicts in the late Medieval period. Fire on the Border or some title like that.

[stockwellpete]

Precisely. I've read several accounts and they all place Dickie III on the right.

I bet Warwick didn't look like the wax figure of himself getting accoutred for battle in that Barnet museum. He shouldn't have left his battle charger that far back behind his lines. With that heavy armor he never had a chance to make good an escape on foot. What a character he was. I recently read a fairly recent book (comparatively speaking) on the WotR by a historical writer who is also a battlefield guide, and he also puts Gloucester on the right. He's the chap who wrote that book about English-Scottish conflicts in the late Medieval period. Fire on the Border or some title like that.

Our guide seemed to be influenced by the fact that Richard of Gloucester subsequently fought on the left flank at Tewkesbury a few weeks later - but again that is contested by historians. I think I will leave him where he is in my Barnet scenario and just adjust the terrain on that side of the battlefield by making it a bit steeper.

Do you mean John Sadler?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sadler_(historian)

I have not read any of his books yet but I will be doing so if you recommend them.

[ZeaBed]

Yes, Sadler. I recently read his WoftR volume which is very good imo. Don't get thrown off by his often perfervid and highflown prose and perhaps over-colorful battle descriptions. It can be fun reading semi-purple prose in that specific context I guess and it is a taste worth acquiring, at least in this one case. I suppose he wans to sound like an engaged academic expert, which he is, and his habit of addressing a live audience at battlesite visits impacts considerably on the style of his written narrative. But it is based on careful and frequent observation of all those battlefields and on extensive research. Some of his insights are frankly rather profound. Also, he appends an introduction with an interesting study of the specifics of Medieval warfare which I thought I would have to slog through but then found absorbing. His discussion of the relationships, events and ever-shifting alliances is also a masterly aspect of this book. Do read it.

[ZeaBed]

I forgot to mention that the maps in this book (WotR) are unfortunately not very good. Sketchy and in at least one case contradicts the text. So the recommendation is for the narrative. For the battle maps we must go to the Ospreys and such.