As i about to get me 'ead handed to me in a couple of games, when is 2.0 coming out? it would make sense holding off starting more till then if it is imminent.
Thanks.
New Version When?
Moderators: firepowerjohan, Happycat, rkr1958, Slitherine Core
Re: New Version When?
January is the target date for release by Slitherine. Now exactly when in January?Lynz wrote:As i about to get me 'ead handed to me in a couple of games, when is 2.0 coming out? it would make sense holding off starting more till then if it is imminent.
Thanks.
Fair enough. But no more new changes - it sounds like GS2 will have plenty to keep us busy playing as it is!rkr1958 wrote:We're still in beta testing. Hopefully next month. There a lot of new added features such as the opportunity to refuse the French armistice that needs to playtesting.kvadra wrote:Any news on when GS 2 is coming out?
We're adding a whole new geo-political aspect that will need to be throughly checked. In fact, we're approaching the need for a flow diagram to understand all the potential choices. What we want to ensure is that the historical sequence is as, or more, attractive as all of the alternate sequences.ncali wrote:Fair enough. But no more new changes - it sounds like GS2 will have plenty to keep us busy playing as it is!rkr1958 wrote:We're still in beta testing. Hopefully next month. There a lot of new added features such as the opportunity to refuse the French armistice that needs to playtesting.kvadra wrote:Any news on when GS 2 is coming out?
I hope you don't get carried away with that. It's very Hearts of Iron, or was it Stragic Command? One of the things I like about Commander is that it is a straightforward game, not too complicated, but with a lot of nuance and flexibility built in. I'm not sure I want a flowchart to follow it! Not that I object to what you're doing, but I'd really just keep it to a minimum. The choice about the Fall of France is a good one.
I don't think we're getting carried away; but I do think we're adding historical believable geo-political options to the game. In addition to giving the axis player the option to accept or reject the French armistice we're looking mechanisms that will allow Spain and Turkey to enter on the axis and allied side. We will still preserve both countries neutrality so both countries can still be invaded by either side but I think the non-invasion mechanisms we're looking at are historical and creates incentives for both the axis and allied players to fight the Battle of France in a more realistic and historical way. If the allied player is careless with the French navy and air force and launch low odds suicide attacks with French ground units then they may find that they've lost North Africa too and that Spain has joined the axis.ncali wrote:I hope you don't get carried away with that. It's very Hearts of Iron, or was it Stragic Command? One of the things I like about Commander is that it is a straightforward game, not too complicated, but with a lot of nuance and flexibility built in. I'm not sure I want a flowchart to follow it! Not that I object to what you're doing, but I'd really just keep it to a minimum. The choice about the Fall of France is a good one.
Any thought given to allowing the option for either the Axis or Allies to attack any country at any time, regardless of that country's neutrality and/or political sympathy?
In other words, for example, this option would allow Germany to attack Hungary if it wanted to, regardless of the historical accuracy.
In other words, for example, this option would allow Germany to attack Hungary if it wanted to, regardless of the historical accuracy.
No. But you could mod the scenario file to change Hungary from pro-axis to neutral to do this. I'm not sure; though, why you would?Aufbach wrote:Any thought given to allowing the option for either the Axis or Allies to attack any country at any time, regardless of that country's neutrality and/or political sympathy?
In other words, for example, this option would allow Germany to attack Hungary if it wanted to, regardless of the historical accuracy.
I thought I share a summary of the Geo-Political Changes that we're testing for GSv2.00.
French Armistice.
1. The French government will now offer an armistice once Paris is captured or left empty after June 27th 1940. If the Germans accept then Vichy France is created as normal.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under French control at the time of surrender will change side. So Axis controlled hexes will remain Axis. This means that if the axis have captured any cities or hexes in French North Africa before they fall of the axis retain control of those cities or hexes.
3. With no Vichy France the Germans can get half production from cities in southern France once they capture them and get a broad front line against Spain making Operation Isabella more likely.
4. Rejecting the armistice offer will become much more attractive to the Germans if the French lose too many units before Paris falls. So if the allied player makes suicide attacks with French units from the Maginot line, wastes the French navy or uses a badly depleted French fighter to block German ground units then they risk Germany controlling all of France from 1940. In effect, the threat of the axis player rejecting the French armistice is a strong incentive for the allied player to employ all French units, including naval and air, in a more historical manner prior to Paris falling.
Germany-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact.
1. It is now possible to DoW Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. A DoW on any one of these countries activate the other two and the USSR. The USSR will get a surprise penalty, though since they weren't prepared for war.
2. An early DoW upon USSR will terminate the Ribbentrop / Molotov pact. That means USSR might not get Eastern Poland, Baltic states, Bessarabia or Karelia dependent upon how early you DoW USSR. This means it's maybe a possible strategy for the Germans to DoW USSR in 1940 and storm eastwards from better positions. Germany will then have to DoW the Baltic States to be able to move into the area. The hexes are empty so the Germans gain a lot.
3. Russia will immediately join the Allies if an Axis unit is adjacent to a Persian city or resource. This simulates better that Persia is annexed by USSR so an Axis entry into Persia will be seen as an aggression against USSR. I coded it that you have to be adjacent to a Persian city or resource to prevent Axis movement inside Iraq to accidentally convert hexes in Persia to Axis control. If an Axis unit moves to a city or resource then it's a deliberate move into Persia and USSR will join the Allies
Persian Neutrality.
1. Persia will now join the Allies and the southern lend lease route to USSR will open when an Axis unit is adjacent to an Iraqi city or resource. The Baku oil resource will be reverted back to Russia because the trade agreement with Germany is cancelled. The rule is slightly different because Russia can't control minor powers. All minor powers go to UK or USA.
Spanish Neutrality.
1. Spain will join the Axis if the French armistice offer is rejected and Casablanca, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Rome and Paris are all Axis controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
2. Spain will join the Allies if the French armistice offer is rejected and Casablanca, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Rome and Paris are all Allied controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
3. Spain will make a trade agreement with Germany for the tungsten mine (2 PP's) if the French armistice offer is rejected and Italy is not conquered. Spain is still neutral. Spain will cancel the trade agreement with Germany if Italy is conquered. Spain is still neutral.
Turkey Neutrality.
1. Turkey will join the Axis if Athens, Bucharest, Sofia, Moscow, Baku and Baghdad are all Axis controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
2. Turkey will join the Allies if Athens, Bucharest, Sofia, Moscow, Baku and Baghdad are all Allies controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
Romanian and Bulgaria.
1. Romania and Bulgaria will join the Allies once Bucharest and Sofia, respectively, are captured by the Allies. A side effect of this is that the Germans might get a nasty surprise if they use Bulgarian or Romanian units to garrison cities. These will change side when these countries join the Allies. That's especially bad if the units were garrisoning a port hex.
Hungary.
1. Hungary surrenders normally and that all non-core hexes will be transferred to the faction leader (normally Germany).
Finland.
1. Finland will sign an armistice with USSR if 2+ cities in Finland / Estonia and <6 Axis units are present in Finland. When the armistice is signed then Finland turns to neutrality and all Finnish units as removed. All Axis and Soviet units in Finland are moved to their respective force pool. The armistice basically removes Finland from the active playing area. Finland is neutral with no units and can't be DoW'ed. That is a good way for Russia to disengage from Finland and relocate their units to the main front.
2. Finland will surrender normally if Helsinki is captured. So Russia should avoid taking too many cities or kill too many units if they intend to take Helsinki so they can use the Finnish ports.
Italy and North Africa.
1. Added in a chance for Italy to join the Axis if there are not sufficient Allied naval units are present in the Med after Belgium has been conquered (i.e., after initiation of Case Yellow). A message is shown at the start of an Allied turn if there are too few Allied naval units. It's also shown at the end of the Allied turn when the die roll is made. Early Italian activation possible if the Mediterranean is not patrolled by enough CVs, BBs, DDs or subs. The probability of an early Italian activation, which can only occur after Belgium has been conquered is equal to 100% - 50% x (number of allied BB’s and CV’s in the Med) – 30% x (number of allied DD’s in the Med) – 20 x (number of allied subs in the Med). If this value is 0% or less then Italy has no chance to activate early but will activate as normal.
2. Added Tunis as an Italian surrender city (must be ALLIED controlled to count, neutral Vichy controlled is not enough).
Vichy France.
1. Vichy France in southern France and Corsica will turn to France core owner if the Allies DoW Vichy France so it's possible to get partisans there and the Axis only get half production from these hexes.
2. Vichy garrisons in Toulouse and Lyons are removed if the Allies DoW Vichy. Coastal garrisons kept so it's not possible to just grab Marseilles, Nice and Ajaccio.
French Armistice.
1. The French government will now offer an armistice once Paris is captured or left empty after June 27th 1940. If the Germans accept then Vichy France is created as normal.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under French control at the time of surrender will change side. So Axis controlled hexes will remain Axis. This means that if the axis have captured any cities or hexes in French North Africa before they fall of the axis retain control of those cities or hexes.
3. With no Vichy France the Germans can get half production from cities in southern France once they capture them and get a broad front line against Spain making Operation Isabella more likely.
4. Rejecting the armistice offer will become much more attractive to the Germans if the French lose too many units before Paris falls. So if the allied player makes suicide attacks with French units from the Maginot line, wastes the French navy or uses a badly depleted French fighter to block German ground units then they risk Germany controlling all of France from 1940. In effect, the threat of the axis player rejecting the French armistice is a strong incentive for the allied player to employ all French units, including naval and air, in a more historical manner prior to Paris falling.
Germany-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact.
1. It is now possible to DoW Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. A DoW on any one of these countries activate the other two and the USSR. The USSR will get a surprise penalty, though since they weren't prepared for war.
2. An early DoW upon USSR will terminate the Ribbentrop / Molotov pact. That means USSR might not get Eastern Poland, Baltic states, Bessarabia or Karelia dependent upon how early you DoW USSR. This means it's maybe a possible strategy for the Germans to DoW USSR in 1940 and storm eastwards from better positions. Germany will then have to DoW the Baltic States to be able to move into the area. The hexes are empty so the Germans gain a lot.
3. Russia will immediately join the Allies if an Axis unit is adjacent to a Persian city or resource. This simulates better that Persia is annexed by USSR so an Axis entry into Persia will be seen as an aggression against USSR. I coded it that you have to be adjacent to a Persian city or resource to prevent Axis movement inside Iraq to accidentally convert hexes in Persia to Axis control. If an Axis unit moves to a city or resource then it's a deliberate move into Persia and USSR will join the Allies
Persian Neutrality.
1. Persia will now join the Allies and the southern lend lease route to USSR will open when an Axis unit is adjacent to an Iraqi city or resource. The Baku oil resource will be reverted back to Russia because the trade agreement with Germany is cancelled. The rule is slightly different because Russia can't control minor powers. All minor powers go to UK or USA.
Spanish Neutrality.
1. Spain will join the Axis if the French armistice offer is rejected and Casablanca, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Rome and Paris are all Axis controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
2. Spain will join the Allies if the French armistice offer is rejected and Casablanca, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Rome and Paris are all Allied controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
3. Spain will make a trade agreement with Germany for the tungsten mine (2 PP's) if the French armistice offer is rejected and Italy is not conquered. Spain is still neutral. Spain will cancel the trade agreement with Germany if Italy is conquered. Spain is still neutral.
Turkey Neutrality.
1. Turkey will join the Axis if Athens, Bucharest, Sofia, Moscow, Baku and Baghdad are all Axis controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
2. Turkey will join the Allies if Athens, Bucharest, Sofia, Moscow, Baku and Baghdad are all Allies controlled. It's not enough that a city is neutral.
Romanian and Bulgaria.
1. Romania and Bulgaria will join the Allies once Bucharest and Sofia, respectively, are captured by the Allies. A side effect of this is that the Germans might get a nasty surprise if they use Bulgarian or Romanian units to garrison cities. These will change side when these countries join the Allies. That's especially bad if the units were garrisoning a port hex.
Hungary.
1. Hungary surrenders normally and that all non-core hexes will be transferred to the faction leader (normally Germany).
Finland.
1. Finland will sign an armistice with USSR if 2+ cities in Finland / Estonia and <6 Axis units are present in Finland. When the armistice is signed then Finland turns to neutrality and all Finnish units as removed. All Axis and Soviet units in Finland are moved to their respective force pool. The armistice basically removes Finland from the active playing area. Finland is neutral with no units and can't be DoW'ed. That is a good way for Russia to disengage from Finland and relocate their units to the main front.
2. Finland will surrender normally if Helsinki is captured. So Russia should avoid taking too many cities or kill too many units if they intend to take Helsinki so they can use the Finnish ports.
Italy and North Africa.
1. Added in a chance for Italy to join the Axis if there are not sufficient Allied naval units are present in the Med after Belgium has been conquered (i.e., after initiation of Case Yellow). A message is shown at the start of an Allied turn if there are too few Allied naval units. It's also shown at the end of the Allied turn when the die roll is made. Early Italian activation possible if the Mediterranean is not patrolled by enough CVs, BBs, DDs or subs. The probability of an early Italian activation, which can only occur after Belgium has been conquered is equal to 100% - 50% x (number of allied BB’s and CV’s in the Med) – 30% x (number of allied DD’s in the Med) – 20 x (number of allied subs in the Med). If this value is 0% or less then Italy has no chance to activate early but will activate as normal.
2. Added Tunis as an Italian surrender city (must be ALLIED controlled to count, neutral Vichy controlled is not enough).
Vichy France.
1. Vichy France in southern France and Corsica will turn to France core owner if the Allies DoW Vichy France so it's possible to get partisans there and the Axis only get half production from these hexes.
2. Vichy garrisons in Toulouse and Lyons are removed if the Allies DoW Vichy. Coastal garrisons kept so it's not possible to just grab Marseilles, Nice and Ajaccio.
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OxfordGuy3
- Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
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I don't understand this bit - if there Germans have rejected the armistace, then there is no surrender(?) - I think this is possibly a little misleading - I assume this just means that only hexes under French control at the time of the switch to UK/Free French control (including those in North Africa/Syria) will become UK controlled? Thanksrkr1958 wrote:I thought I share a summary of the Geo-Political Changes that we're testing for GSv2.00.
French Armistice.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under French control at the time of surrender will change side. So Axis controlled hexes will remain Axis. This means that if the axis have captured any cities or hexes in French North Africa before they fall of the axis retain control of those cities or hexes.
Good point. I've reworded. Is this better (i.e., less confusing)?oxford_guy wrote:I don't understand this bit - if there Germans have rejected the armistace, then there is no surrender(?) - I think this is possibly a little misleading - I assume this just means that only hexes under French control at the time of the switch to UK/Free French control (including those in North Africa/Syria) will become UK controlled? Thanksrkr1958 wrote:I thought I share a summary of the Geo-Political Changes that we're testing for GSv2.00.
French Armistice.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under French control at the time of surrender will change side. So Axis controlled hexes will remain Axis. This means that if the axis have captured any cities or hexes in French North Africa before they fall of the axis retain control of those cities or hexes.
French Armistice.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under axis control at the time of that the armistice is rejected will change to German control. The hexes controlled by France will change to UK control. Note that his means that any cities or hexes in French North Africa captured by the axis before the armistice will remain under axis control.
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OxfordGuy3
- Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
- Posts: 336
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:32 pm
- Location: Oxford, UK
Yes, I think that's much clearer.rkr1958 wrote:Good point. I've reworded. Is this better (i.e., less confusing)?oxford_guy wrote:I don't understand this bit - if there Germans have rejected the armistace, then there is no surrender(?) - I think this is possibly a little misleading - I assume this just means that only hexes under French control at the time of the switch to UK/Free French control (including those in North Africa/Syria) will become UK controlled? Thanksrkr1958 wrote:I thought I share a summary of the Geo-Political Changes that we're testing for GSv2.00.
French Armistice.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under French control at the time of surrender will change side. So Axis controlled hexes will remain Axis. This means that if the axis have captured any cities or hexes in French North Africa before they fall of the axis retain control of those cities or hexes.
French Armistice.
2. If the Germans reject the armistice then North Africa and Syria will become Free French territory and all French controlled hexes in mainland France / Corsica will turn to UK control. All French units will change to UK and get flagged as Free French. So you can evacuate units to Britain and the Germans must destroy them and capture all hexes in France to get control. Also, if the French armistice is rejected by the axis then only the hexes under axis control at the time of that the armistice is rejected will change to German control. The hexes controlled by France will change to UK control. Note that his means that any cities or hexes in French North Africa captured by the axis before the armistice will remain under axis control.
BTW will there be an political cost (e.g. delayed US entry) in GS 2.0 to the Western Allies DOW on minor countries, like Ireland and Portugal? I seem to recall this was discussed at one point. Certainly in real life if the UK had declared war on Ireland, there would have been outrage in the USA.
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Peter Stauffenberg
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If the Allies DoW countries prior to US joining the the Allies then the war effort will drop by 5 per DoW. Since every war effort % counts so early in the war it can hamper the US lab builds etc.
After USA joins the Allies the penalty is lifted. The US entry time is not affected by this because the event that caused the US entry happened outside the game (Japan attacking Pearl Harbor).
After USA joins the Allies the penalty is lifted. The US entry time is not affected by this because the event that caused the US entry happened outside the game (Japan attacking Pearl Harbor).
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avoran
- Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
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- Location: Veliki Novgorod
This is great! I can't help but think, though, that the options for Spain and (especially) Turkey to join the war seem likely to happen only when it hardly matters any more.
That is probably a realistic reflection of risk-averse Spanish & Turkish thinking at the time. But knowing for sure that they WON"T join in "unless" gives players an important advantage that the real-world leaders didn't have. The Soviets would never have left the Caucasus frontier completely undefended, for example - but in the game you can frequently get away with it.
Similarly, iirc the British invaded Syria not to get its resources - hardly worth the distraction - but because they were worried that Vichy might be a back door for the Germans - something that is impossible in CEAW, unless the Axis DoW Vichy.
I wonder - is there scope for playing with these things in future releases, making them more random and less predictable? But please let's not delay this one.
That is probably a realistic reflection of risk-averse Spanish & Turkish thinking at the time. But knowing for sure that they WON"T join in "unless" gives players an important advantage that the real-world leaders didn't have. The Soviets would never have left the Caucasus frontier completely undefended, for example - but in the game you can frequently get away with it.
Similarly, iirc the British invaded Syria not to get its resources - hardly worth the distraction - but because they were worried that Vichy might be a back door for the Germans - something that is impossible in CEAW, unless the Axis DoW Vichy.
I wonder - is there scope for playing with these things in future releases, making them more random and less predictable? But please let's not delay this one.