LF

[shawnt63]

Just curious, having never played the table top game, I am still rather new to FoG, but it seems to me that Light Foot should have an opportunity to break off from combat with heavy foot and possibly cataphract type cavalry. But if that is not doable at least the Heavy foot. I understand that they shouldn't get a chance to break away from LC or HC makes sense and even medium or other LF but really I can't see a bunch of skirmish type infantry standing around being pummeled by heavy foot if they had a chance to scoot they would. Am I dreaming or is this a possibility?

[TheGrayMouser]

Just curious, having never played the table top game, I am still rather new to FoG, but it seems to me that Light Foot should have an opportunity to break off from combat with heavy foot and possibly cataphract type cavalry. But if that is not doable at least the Heavy foot. I understand that they shouldn't get a chance to break away from LC or HC makes sense and even medium or other LF but really I can't see a bunch of skirmish type infantry standing around being pummeled by heavy foot if they had a chance to scoot they would. Am I dreaming or is this a possibility?

I think this would be a dream since there are no break offs (except by cavalry under certian circumstances) in the TT and thus wouldnt be considered.

I would rather them drop an automatic cohesion level when hit y heavies so they dont last so long in combat , rather to have them constantly slipping away , rallying and returning....

[batesmotel]

This is consistent with the way the TT rules work. Basically the design decision was that if you don't want your skirmishers to be stuck in melee with heavier enemy troops then you should consciously move them out of the way before the enemy troops can close with them rather than having it easy for them to escape after being caught.

Chris

[76mm]

This is consistent with the way the TT rules work. Basically the design decision was that if you don't want your skirmishers to be stuck in melee with heavier enemy troops then you should consciously move them out of the way before the enemy troops can close with them rather than having it easy for them to escape after being caught.

Doesn't this make javelins fairly useless, other than chasing off other light troops? I can't say I've focused in my readings on ancient javelin tactics, but I would think that javelineers would tend to dash up to the heavier troops, unleash a volley, and high-tail it out of there...

Hopefully this issue will be resolved when players can set the evasion behavior themselves, although I sort of dread that level of micromanagement.

[shawnt63]

Maybe that is the answer then that lf can shoot and move? That would allow a barrage of javelins and a sprint back away from the target, makes sense from a tactical point of view.

[TheGrayMouser]

Maybe that is the answer then that lf can shoot and move? That would allow a barrage of javelins and a sprint back away from the target, makes sense from a tactical point of view.

I think an issue with that is they will be really hard to caught until you run em down to the map edge.

As it stands now i dont think I have ever seen a heavy infantry unit charge and catch a skirmisher, unless terraign or friendly BG's blocks its evade path.. Most of the time the heavies latch on from an advance after routing an enemy, sometimes (most unfortunate) I have had a LF charge a LF and chase and stick onto an enemy heavy foot the enemy lf was evading by, no fun at all.

[76mm]

Thinking about this a little, maybe LF/HF collisions could be handled in a different way--LF would not evade HF, but would suffer a cohesion drop every time it was contacted by HF, and but could move away from the HF rather than being stuck in melee (or maybe pass a disengage test, like cav). If just really seems bizarre to me for a pike unit to grind some scattered javelinmen into dust.

This issue kind of ties into the (rather heated) discussion about LF ammo--presumably the only reason anyone cares about crushing LF with HF is so that the little buggers can't dash off to a flank and pepper other units with arrows/javelins for the rest of the game (well, that and the scoring mechanism...). Otherwise, the LF would do their thing, and then not really do anything for most of the battle (having exhausted their ammo).

[batesmotel]

Go back and read Xenophon or Thucydides or other classical authors. The basic answer to your opponent's LF is to have a sufficient amount of LF of your own, mounted troops, or in the absence of the former, MF that will be fast enough to at least scare the enemy LF. HF generally wasn't very good historically at dealing with LF skirmishers. A prime example of this is the Spartan defeat on Sphacteria and the destruction of a Spartan moira by Iphikrates peltests outside Corinth.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

Go back and read Xenophon or Thucydides or other classical authors. The basic answer to your opponent's LF is to have a sufficient amount of LF of your own, mounted troops, or in the absence of the former, MF that will be fast enough to at least scare the enemy LF. HF generally wasn't very good historically at dealing with LF skirmishers. A prime example of this is the Spartan defeat on Sphacteria and the destruction of a Spartan moira by Iphikrates peltests outside Corinth.

Chris

I think this is a reason that Hoplite panlopy lightened over the years (part of the armoured vs protected discussion on the TT forums) although it seamed the argument there was that it was more due to economics ie cost....

[76mm]

Go back and read Xenophon or Thucydides or other classical authors. The basic answer to your opponent's LF is to have a sufficient amount of LF of your own, mounted troops, or in the absence of the former, MF that will be fast enough to at least scare the enemy LF. HF generally wasn't very good historically at dealing with LF skirmishers. A prime example of this is the Spartan defeat on Sphacteria and the destruction of a Spartan moira by Iphikrates peltests outside Corinth.

I guess you're talking to me, although I'm arguing that HF should not be able to beat up LF as it does in this game?

[batesmotel]

Go back and read Xenophon or Thucydides or other classical authors. The basic answer to your opponent's LF is to have a sufficient amount of LF of your own, mounted troops, or in the absence of the former, MF that will be fast enough to at least scare the enemy LF. HF generally wasn't very good historically at dealing with LF skirmishers. A prime example of this is the Spartan defeat on Sphacteria and the destruction of a Spartan moira by Iphikrates peltests outside Corinth.

I guess you're talking to me, although I'm arguing that HF should not be able to beat up LF as it does in this game?

In general LF shoudn't be caught by HF in the game unless the HF is assisted by LF or mounted troops or is badly misplayed. If LF lets itself get in a position where it does get caught by HF, then it probably deserves to get destroyed in combat which is the normal outcome in the game. The new skirmish aggression level setting currently in the S&S beta will eliminate much of the gameiness of the current rope a dope style tactics where a higher grade skirmisher will not evade from a lower grade one so the lower grade one can pin it so that HF can then engage it. With the current AI evades, LF is generally safe if it stays outside of charge reach of opposing HF when there are also opposing LF around.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

Hmm, there are so many ways that lights could be handled, evade not evade break off , not beak off, hard to say what would be a good balance.

I kinda like the idea that lights can evade from heavies but not so much break off..
I do like the idea of lights taking a cohesion test when they do evade, that way they cant indefinaletly move fwrd evade move fwrd evade.....
So, superior lights could last longer in the stress of just barely being able to get out of the reach of angry cataphracts, vs poors. After all there is only so much adrenelin rushes humans can handle before they say "enough is enough, Im outta here" (simulated by routing )

[batesmotel]

Just as a question, are people really finding LF to be all that effective with the current FoG digital rules? While they can be annoying and may pick off a few isolated BGs in a battle, it strikes me that they are rarely if ever decisive in determining the outcome of a battle in the game. This mostly seems like lots of proposed solutions in search of a problem.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

Just as a question, are people really finding LF to be all that effective with the current FoG digital rules? While they can be annoying and may pick off a few isolated BGs in a battle, it strikes me that they are rarely if ever decisive in determining the outcome of a battle in the game. This mostly seems like lots of proposed solutions in search of a problem.

Chris

Well the way i see it is that lights are/can be decisive in FOG, not because they can dish out punishement and cause enemy BG's to rout, but the fact they can stay alive by evading relativley easily, which means that you have a BP reserve... ie they will keep you in the game LONGER before you reach your rout level, not by necesarily doing anything positive but just by existing....


Also there is the "emersion" factor.... It is sometimes hard to get fully immersed in game when units do things no human would ever do....
No javelineers, in the open, would even consider aproaching heavy cavalry frontally to pop javelins at them and even think they have hope to run away (ie evade)
Similarly, commando style LF movement around enemy bg's to hem them in and hinder evaders movement so they can be caught is also problematic for emmersion factor

I realise this is a game, but when I slide around and pin and kill my opponets light foot and win a game (despite the fact that he still has his primary troops still intact) I all of a sudden dont feel like a commander of of an ancient army but merely a chess player....


Now dont get me wrong , i enjoy this game immensly but the treatment of lights has always been that one area that stopps me from givng this game a 100% in my mental grading of such things.... Its almost everything i wanted in a game for this genre, but just falls short... (of course no other game exists that comes even remotely as close to FOG in my quest for the perfect ancient/medieval game)

[76mm]

...it strikes me that they are rarely if ever decisive in determining the outcome of a battle in the game. This mostly seems like lots of proposed solutions in search of a problem.

As mouser says, IMO they are often decisive, but not in the way that you mean--I guess I don't play LF very well, but in my experience LF can get destroyed too easily by HF, leaving a player at a significant breakpoint disadvantage. Or occasionally some of them can be "herded" off map.

I don't watch replays so am not sure what is happening, but my LF seems to be fairly frequently caught by HF/MF. Often the other player pins them with another LF, but sometimes there is no other LF around...I will try to pay more attention to what is happening, because this seems to happen fairly often to me.

[maximvs]

Likewise 76mm, I've found that most of my losses in MP games are because I've not paid sufficient attention to my LF who get mopped up and wipe out much of my breakpoints.

[Morbio]

I think LF can be significant, most for the reasons explained;
- Extra BPs (if played well)
- Loss of BPs (if played badly)
- Wearing down units through attrition. If you have a lot of LF then this will take a toll.

The thing that often puts a lot of players at a disadvantage is that they send their LF off without any support at all. They then get pinned and destroyed by MF/HF/Cav and then they are in trouble BPwise.

I'm not an expert of ancient history, but I can't believe that LF skirmishers ranged very far from the main body, I expect they operated just in front of the main army as the armies closed on each other and then operated at the flanks as the armies pounded each other to bits.

People do complain about the loss of LF and the impact it has on their chance of winning, but generals do need to use them sensibly, with support, otherwise it will affect them adversely.

[76mm]

People do complain about the loss of LF and the impact it has on their chance of winning, but generals do need to use them sensibly, with support, otherwise it will affect them adversely.

This is one of the reasons why I don't like playing with double-moves, because you're strongly incentivized to push out the LF/LH as far out as possible to keep the other player from double-moving. At least that is what I often do...

I think that one of the problems I have with LF is that I play almost exclusively 800 pt games; the maps can get pretty crowded with some armies and if I take my eye off the ball for a turn or two, it can be fairly easy for the enemy to herd LF/LH off the map.

[shawnt63]

That's a very interesting point 756mm - herding and pushing off the map! I find that I do that sometimes especially when low on LF - you can never catch them but you can certainly herd off the board!

Morbio, your point about how they give bp if played well etc, this was something I found a bit odd when I started playing FoG. I primarily play miniature games, and have never played FoG, most of my ancient gaming revolved around Armati and Tactica. In Armati skirmish infantry don't even count as VP/Bp units. VP/BP units are made up of Light and Heavy Cavalry, Medium and Heavy Infantry and elephants, chariots etc. Just as an example a Thracian army has a total of 16 units (or Bg's) 10 Light Heavy Inf (designation doesn't matter really but for this example would count as a BP) 1 HC, 1 LC and 4 Skirmish Infantry. I agree that the lights can be made to be very "gamey" but I also agree that they don't, by and large, really do a lot to heavy units unless they are used to help pin them especially in difficult terrain.
So I am just wondering what it would do to the game if light infantry (and really these are skirmish type units) didn't count for any bps? This might change how people use them - but it could be worse

My whole point to this, from the start, is that it seems very odd to me that lights can be sitting there for upwards of 4 turns battling a heavy unit in the open - this doesn't "feel" right to me - happy to continue but I just think the lights would run away faster, either on purpose or because they got their butts kicked!

[76mm]

I should say that "LF herding" usually happens on maps with some kind of restrictive terrain--ie, some bit of impassable terrain that sticks out from my board edge, and my LF get stuck on the wrong side of it. And I'm not really saying that any fix is necessary other than me paying a bit more attention, although it does seem odd to me that the victory conditions would make it worth it to the other player to have a handful of his units chase a handful of my LF off the board.