Early Swedes horse inferiority...

[BeansNFranks]

I heard some talk about the inferiority of the horse in the Early Swedes list, and was just curious exactly what people were referring to. Is it because they are only armoured? I would figure the fighting like AM knights would be a pretty big advantage.

Are heavilly armoured / horse / pistol/pistol that much better than determined horse / armoured / pistol/pistol or Impact/mounted pistol?

[DanielS]

Before 1632 the troops labled as "Swedish Lätta Ryttare and veteran German cavalry" are only rated as Average Horse or Average Determined Horse rather than having the 'Superior' rating their experience and high morale should qualify them for. The argument for this is the inferior horses used by the native Swedes (the native Swedish horse breed was small in size). The problem is that the native cavalry at most represented some 20% of the cavalry in the main field army, the remaining 80% were Germans mounted on horses from Northern Germany, Prussia, Livonia and Poland. It's a bit odd IMHO that the German veterans gets downgraded because of the native Swedes having small horses.

[BeansNFranks]

Before 1632 the troops labled as "Swedish Lätta Ryttare and veteran German cavalry" are only rated as Average Horse or Average Determined Horse rather than having the 'Superior' rating their experience and high morale should qualify them for. The argument for this is the inferior horses used by the native Swedes (the native Swedish horse breed was small in size). The problem is that the native cavalry at most represented some 20% of the cavalry in the main field army, the remaining 80% were Germans mounted on horses from Northern Germany, Prussia, Livonia and Poland. It's a bit odd IMHO that the German veterans gets downgraded because of the native Swedes having small horses.

Yeah, I understood that. I was just trying to figure out what I'm painting first Finns or the German optional Horse. The germans fight in files, but have better armour.

[nikgaukroger]

Before 1632 the troops labled as "Swedish Lätta Ryttare and veteran German cavalry" are only rated as Average Horse or Average Determined Horse rather than having the 'Superior' rating their experience and high morale should qualify them for. The argument for this is the inferior horses used by the native Swedes (the native Swedish horse breed was small in size). The problem is that the native cavalry at most represented some 20% of the cavalry in the main field army, the remaining 80% were Germans mounted on horses from Northern Germany, Prussia, Livonia and Poland. It's a bit odd IMHO that the German veterans gets downgraded because of the native Swedes having small horses.

Thinking about this I wonder if you could offer an opinion on something. The cavalry was, apparently, derided before Breitenfeld for its small horses - was this specifically just the Swedish regiments? I ask becuase I'm pondering just what horses the German cavalry that had been some time in Gustavus' service would have had by that time. Some had been in Swedish service for quite a few years and horse attrition is usually high, so where would they have got their replacements from?

Ta.

[DanielS]

It was only the native Swedish & Finnish cavalry which was held in low regard by the Imperial commanders, the German cavalry in Swedish service was considered to be of better quality.
For example FZM Schauenburg who commanded the Imperial army in Pomerania described the native Swedes as "pretty bad" in his report to Tilly, but on the other hand he spoke of the 'Prussian Horse' in much higher terms. ('Prussian Horse' was the lable used by both Swedes and their enemies to describe the 'German' cavalry which marched from Swedish occupied Prussia & Livonia to Germany in 1630-1631, it was a mix of the German cavalry raised directly by the Swedes in Livonia, Prussia and Northern Germany in the 1620's , the ex-Danish veterans recruited in 1628 and the experienced German troops left unemployed when the Poles & Lithuanians disbanded their German units in 1629.)

Salvius famous description from Breitenfeldt also singles oute the native horse, it is the Swedish and Finnish horses he describes as small compared to the German ones.

Remounts came from a wide variety of sources, primarily Northern Germany, Prussia and the Baltic provinces as well as from Poland after the truce ended the fighting. The supply of native Swedish horses was strained just to keep the expanded native cavalry force up to strenght and the native units 'aquired' a fair number of horses overseas as well even before Breitenfeldt.

[nikgaukroger]

Interesting that it appears then that the native cavalry stuck to using native horses despite the availability of horses from other sources.

I have this image of the Swedes on their short stout horses looking like something out of a Thelwell catoon

[DanielS]

A question of money and access to the markets. Each Swedish trooper paid for his own horse and gear and as he commonly as yeoman there were limits to his purchasing power. Officers, NCO's and staff often members of the Gentry or at least wealthy yeomen, hence they could aford more expensive foreign horses. (A fact which can be seen in the muster rolls were the officers horse are often much larger, 12-14 'hands' compared to often only 10-11 'hands' for the troopers. The units themselves were raised in Sweden & Finland and were sent back home to rest and recover in the 1620's which meant that men looking for new horses were often limited to what was available in those areas. (As I wrote previously the native units did 'aquire' horses overseas as well but the majority of horse were still native Swedish breeds) In the TYW however units served for much longer periods of time without R&R back in Sweden so had to aquire their remounts locally.

One thing to keep in mind is that the report sof the low quality of the native Swedish cavalry wasalmost entirely based on their apperance (small horses and limited armour that was slightly outlandish in apperance) rather than actual performance. The native Swedes&Finns looked like rather bad cavalry in German eyes but after Breitenfeldt there was a sudden stop in the habit of judging the Swedish cavalry based on apperance.

I had to google "Thelwell Cartoon", those images are much too close for comfort I'll never be able to view my tabletop Swedes in quite the same way after seeing those...

[nikgaukroger]

I had to google "Thelwell Cartoon", those images are much too close for comfort I'll never be able to view my tabletop Swedes in quite the same way after seeing those...

My work here is done ...

[Sarmaticus]

Not strictly apropos but Pomerellian farmers in the mid 20th regretted the replacement of their little black horses by the bigger warm/cold bloods that the Prussian state/army had required. The smaller breed was better at hauling through the sandy soil and could be fed on pine needles.