Colonial Portuguese

[rbodleyscott]

I have not yet had the proofs of Colonies and Conquest, so if you wanted to squeeze a pike and shot option into the Colonial Portguese list - in the light of pippohispano's stuff - it might be possible.

[rbodleyscott]

There is a discussion in 2 threads:

Trade & Treachery
Early modern Portguese

[robertthebruce]

I will try to get some information about it, but I´m out this weekend and I will not be operational until Monday, I'm afraid.

[rbodleyscott]

I will try to get some information about it, but I´m out this weekend and I will not be operational until Monday, I'm afraid.

Thanks.

I have no idea when Osprey will send me the proofs for Book 4, but if we can get something done before then, and it doesn't occupy too much extra space to muck up the layout, I can probably get them to fit it in.

It probably will be fairly soon, as it is several weeks since I proof-read Book 3.

[robertthebruce]

Ok, I will try to be fast then.

[rbodleyscott]

Nik,

Please could you take a look at the threads discussing this, in case there is a simple way we can improve the Colonial Portuguese list (in Morocco) when I get the proofs back.

It seems that we would need
1) Some pike and shot BGs - problem being how these would evolve over time
2) Maybe1 BG of Gendarmes or other heavy horse
3) Increase the number of ginetes

The threads are:

trade & treachery
Early Modern Portuguese army

in the General discussion section

The simpler alternative (which is not to be preferred) might be to simply state that the list does not cover Morocco and remove the ginetes line.

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David,

I don't know when I will receive the proofs from Osprey, but when I do I will have to return them within a day or two, so this matter is urgent - if you are able to spare any time.

[robertthebruce]

I was looking for information Richard, but I have to say that I have not found too much. I´m searching in portuguese sources. I will post all that I have this afternoon anyway.

[rbodleyscott]

I was looking for information Richard, but I have to say that I have not found too much. I´m searching in portuguese sources. I will post all that I have this afternoon anyway.

Thanks

[rbodleyscott]

The Book 4 proof has arrived! Time is therefore severely limited on any changes to the list.

[rbodleyscott]

I am coming round to the view that as time does not permit a considered analysis of the evidence, we need to cut our losses on the Colonial Portuguese list and say that it does not include Morocco (and remove the Ginetes line).

Then we can write a new list covering 16th century peninsular Portuguese armies, and those in Morocco, and put them in Book 6: Cities of Gold. (We can always note that they should not be included in the theme, but in a different theme, if we feel it necessary - I already think that Cities of Gold needs an Appendix 2 anyway - because its theme should include the Colonial Portuguese & Dutch at least).

Nik and David, what do you think of this idea?

[robertthebruce]

Richard, I think, this list is more complicated that it looks, It could be good idea to include it in cities of gold. In this period, Portugal is fucising their economic and militar power in the colonies, as America and africa.



And I have several ideas to change the list.


Basically:

In Africa:


Before 1578

Portuguese pikes
Ginetes
Detached arquebusiers and crossbows
Some heavy cavalry
Artillery
Not sure of the creation date for tercos

After 1578

Tercos (used in alcazarquibir and alcantara)
German, Italian, Dutch Mercenaries
Aventureiros
Cavaleiros
Artillery
Horse arquebusiers
Ginetes
Detached arquebusiers

Indonesia

Civilisados (Lower number than the actual list)
Non civilisados
Portuguese troops


India

Foot Portuguese

America

Portuguese Conquistadores



And some peninsular battles could be included.



I bet for the Richard Idea.

[rbodleyscott]

Well I think we have to keep the Colonial list in Colonies and Conquest - from your list it isn't too far wrong except for North Africa.

Then we can do another list for North Africa in Cities of Gold.

[rbodleyscott]

I propose changing the last sentence in the intro to the Colonial Portuguese list to:

“This list covers Portuguese colonial forces, except in Portugal and NW Africa, from 1494 to 1698.”

(N.B. NW Africa fudges the issue of the cavalry at Safim)

And remove the Ginetes line.

JD has agreed that we can add a Portugese in Morocco (and 16thC Portugal?) list to Cities of Gold.

I also suggest we change "Civilisados infantry" to "Portuguese and civilisados infantry" as "civilisados" appear to have been assimilated natives. [In main list, allies list and starter list]

Troop notes. Change first sentence to:

“Portuguese colonial soldiers had a reputation for being ill-disciplined, no doubt not helped by the fact they were poorly paid - what little pay they did receive being paid at irregular intervals.”

Add to end of troop notes:

"Civilisados were assimilated natives. By the second quarter of the 17th century a high proportion of the soldiers were convicts (degredados)."

[robertthebruce]

Good solution.

[nikgaukroger]

Looks a good solution to me.

[youngr]

I propose changing the last sentence in the intro to the Colonial Portuguese list to:

“This list covers Portuguese colonial forces, except in Portugal and NW Africa, from 1494 to 1698.”

(N.B. NW Africa fudges the issue of the cavalry at Safim)

And remove the Ginetes line.

JD has agreed that we can add a Portugese in Morocco (and 16thC Portugal?) list to Cities of Gold.

Perhaps the Colonial Portuguese list in Book 6 should include all of Africa? They are allies to several of the African lists / sub-lists

[rbodleyscott]

Perhaps the Colonial Portuguese list in Book 6 should include all of Africa? They are allies to several of the African lists / sub-lists

The issue with Morocco is that the Portugese used standard pike and shot tercios there, as well as light and heavy cavalry.

We don't think they did any of these outside NW Africa - unless you have evidence to the contrary.

If we are right, the Colonial Portugese list in Book 4 will do for East Africa.