Minors & Troop positions

[IainMcNeil]

I'm sure someone recently said they knew about troop positioning for minor nations and starting locations of troops for germany/Poland etc, but I cannot fid the mail anywhere. This kind of thing is very useful and we'd be interested in getting the person who talked about involved to ensure our troops placements are accurate.

If you are interested in getting involved in this kind of research & scenario design, let us know!

[vypuero]

I am going to suggest some Diplomacy options first:

Netherlands = Pro-Allied Neutral. They should also be fairly easy to occupy - the Axis should probably get full value from them as a conquest. There was some but fairly minimal resistance, so I would suggest a garrison requirement for the capitol city in order to get the full value of the city (else you could make it 50% value).

Belgium - A DoW on Belgium should include Luxembourg. Belgium should also be a Pro-Allied Neutral with the same status as the Netherlands above.

[James Taylor]

More important than troop dispositions and OOBs (easy stuff) is the ability of the AI to randomize a number of variable deployments dependent upon whether they are being DoWed by Axis or Allies.

This will discourage a player's "cookie cutter" approach and vastly increase the replayability.

You might even consider allowing the defending player to place the units upon the DoW by his opponent in H to H games. There may need to be some restrictions to disallow some gamey placements, like giving the placing player a shaded area for starting positions.

I understand this may present some difficulties in coding and possibly delay release, but if you truly wish to enter this game into the market with some unique qualities it might be advantageous to consider.

[IainMcNeil]

I think it would be much better if troops are in position on the map before you DoW. It makes no sense to me for them to appear suddenly after that point - giving the defender an advantage when they are the ones who should be caught off guard.

Initial positions could be randomized to some degree fairly easily if we thought it added something. This would mean scouting out the enemy in advance with air power would be very useful. Not sure we want to go as far as spying though

[vypuero]

The following Nations should be considered Axis Allies. They make a DoW against Russia simultaneous with an Axis DoW on Russia. If Russia at some point in the game is allowed to make a DoW vs. the Axis, any attack on these Nations will automatically mean a DoW vs. the Axis as well, should they choose to (i.e. the Axis can make a DoW on Russia as a response, or they may decline to). These should include:

Hungary - Hungary joins the Axis when the Axis makes a DoW against Russia. However, prior to that, Germany may move units through Hungary freely. Hungary does not surrender until Budapest is occupied, at which time all Hungarian Units are removed from the game. There should be an initial number of units assigned to Hungary as well as a manpower pool. This will allow the Axis to build Hungarian Units (in Hungary) and serve as a benefit, but a limited one that is lost when Hungary is occupied.

Limits: 1 Garrison Unit must remain in the capitol and an additional active unit must remain on the border between Hungary and Rumania. Hungarian Units may be deployed to Yugoslavia, Poland, and Russia.

Rumania - Rumania has an Oil Supply available to the Axis and should also work in the same fashion as Hungary. Rumania surrenders when the number of Russian Units in Rumania exceeds the number of Axis Units in Rumania. Any surviving Rumanian Units join Russia, but no additional manpower is added to Russia. They simply become Rumanian Units, and any Territory not occupied currently by Axis Units cedes to Russia.

Limits: 1 Garrison Unit must remain in the capitol and an additional active unit must remain on the border between Rumania and Hungary. Rumanian Units may be deployed to Yugoslavia and Russia only.

[vypuero]

Bulgaria - Bulgaria was a nominal Axis Ally. They should activate if there is an Axis DoW against both Greece and Yugoslavia in effect as they helped the Axis in exchange for portions of territory in both. Bulgaria will surrender to the Allies once there are more Allied than Axis Units in or adjacent to Bulgaria. Remaining Units will then switch allegiance to the Allies (most likely Russia). One more possibility is if the Axis make a DoW vs. Turkey, Bulgaria would then also activate as an Axis Ally.

Limits: 1 Garrison unit in the capitol, and troops limited to Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, and European Turkey.

Finland - I am going to assume that historical borders for Russia are being used that include their territorial acquisitions after 1939. That means they have occupied a portion of Finland as well as the Baltic States, Eastern Poland, and Bessarabia from Rumania. Therefore, Finland should activate as an Axis Ally upon a DoW vs. Russia.

Limits: 1 Garrison unit in Helsinki, and otherwise they should be limited to within their old borders + 1 hex adjacent to them, excluding Leningrad (they did not help in the attack vs. Leningrad). In 1944, if the Axis have no units in or adjacent to Leningrad, they become Neutral again and cede back their lost territory to Russia, and all German units are expelled unless they make a DoW vs. Neutral Finland.

[James Taylor]

Wait a minute Iain, your saying that the attacking player always has better intelligence than the defender. Do you know anything about the the intelligent gathering levels of WW2?

Rudimentary at best. You are disregarding the very nature of FoW by assuming that the belligerents have exact data of their opponents strengths and locations.

Just examine the mistakes of present day intelligence with the tech level available now.

I believe, discounting my memory, Hitler made some quote about, "If I had known the strength of the Red Army in the beginning, I would never have attacked."

[vypuero]

Spain and Portugal should both be pro-Axis Neutrals. If either are attacked by the Allies, then both join the Axis. I think that for simplified diplomacy, an Axis DoW against Spain should not be allowed. Alternately, if they choose to do so, then they lose their other Axis Allies in the East (Finland, Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria) as a consequence.

Limits: 1 Unit Garrisons in each important City (in fact we may want to extend that to other neutrals where applicable), otherwise they should be limited to Spain, Portugal, and perhaps occupied France and Morocco. They should start with some troops in Spanish Morocco.

[vypuero]

Turkey should be Neutral. Any side can choose to attack them, but otherwise they do not join any side. Their troops should be allowed to enter the adjacent Nations they border - in the Middle East, Russia, and Bulgaria depending on what side they are on.

[vypuero]

I think you can use the following method for initial troop deployment:

1) Keep them off the Map unless the Nation is activated.
2) Once the Nation activates, there should be an auto-deployment (i.e. some units must deploy in capitol and other various critical locations) and the rest should be deployed by the AI as it best sees fit based on the threat to the border.

I think that will allow the following:

Some required deployments are made
Some randomness is assigned that prevents pre-planning
The forces will be deployed to face the threat.

[firepowerjohan]

Thanks for the diplomacy information.
Unfortunately, we have no intention to make diplomatic rules individually for each country. We have a generic diplomacy that concerns all countries.


- Countries surrender when they lose their capital
- Countries join their allies at a certain date, some countries never join
- You cannot DOW your allies (countries are either proaxis, proallies or neutral)

So, this means if Belgium and Holland are proallies then Allies cannot DOW them. I would like to hear if ppl like that, I think some players would like to have the freedom of declaring war on any country. So, the countries we set as allies we pretty much do because of balancing if the game would be too awkwardly to some players if allowed. For instance if USSR invaded Iran, Iraq and then showed up in Egypt or if Axis invaded Switzerland to get around the Maginot into France would upset some ppl.

Ofcourse, I could always have that as an option i.e like the following

"DoW on Friendly Countries Allowed" : "Yes", "No"

[uxbridge]

Yes!

Why not with a small chance that any pro-axis country will be neutral with no automatic "join" if Germany/Italy does this. 2-3% chance for each country would suffice. This would most certainly make Adolphs finger tremble on the left mouse button. There could also be an 1 % chance that an axis country becomes pro-allied if Germany/Italy attack another pro-axis country.

In the Allied case, a 25 % chance that USA will delay war entry be a random number of months up to a year, will mostly do the trick.

The total absence of diplomatic options makes the game seem less exciting, regretfully.

[firepowerjohan]

Yes!

Why not with a small chance that any pro-axis country will be neutral with no automatic "join" if Germany/Italy does this. 2-3% chance for each country would suffice. This would most certainly make Adolphs finger tremble on the left mouse button. There could also be an 1 % chance that an axis country becomes pro-allied if Germany/Italy attack another pro-axis country.

In the Allied case, a 25 % chance that USA will delay war entry be a certain number of months up to a year, will mostly do the trick.

The total absence of diplomatic options makes the game seem less exciting, regretfully.

Ok, but regardless of diplomacy depth, should the DOW be totally unrestricted (be possible for ahistorical things like Axis to invade Switzerland to get south of maginot flank or for USSR to invade Perisa+Iraq to get a help route to Allies in Egypt? or even if Germany invade Italy) or have it impossible to invade friends?

[vypuero]

To answer your question:

No - should not be unrestricted. I would offer that as a preference option, though, where people could click as an "optional feature" = no DoW restrictions.

With what you have in mind, are Axis Allies going to align with the Axis once there is a DoW on Russia or not?

[uxbridge]

Well, the Russians did invade Iran, together with the Brits, and the Brits invaded Iraq, so I can see no problem with that happening. And attacking France through Switzerland would probaly have been much harder than going through the Maginot line.

Be that as it may, I do see your problem here. Allow to much and the game can deteriorate into complete shambles. Even though the game doesn't "support" a diplomatic model, I think it would still be nice if some a-historical options could be used and some a-historical political outcomes could be allowed.

So, yes, I think at least the Axis should be able to declare war on anybody, if there was some possible consequences like the ones I mentioned earlier.

Even the Allies should be allowed to declare war (Norway being the example, even though the Germans got there before). US public opinon could, as mentionded, be the check.

USSR, though, I think we should leave without options. Since USSR/Western Allies is the same player, the options opening with cooperation and possibilities to declare war is sobering.

All above is, of course, only if it is simple to implement.

[vypuero]

You described the simplified Diplomacy. I will make suggestions based on that, then:

Belgium - Pro-Allied Neutral
Bulgaria - Axis Ally (Historic Date)
Finland - Axis Ally (Historic Date)
Greece - Pro-Allied Neutral
Hungary - Axis Ally (Historic Date)
Iraq - Pro-Allied Neutral
Ireland - Neutral
Norway - Neutral
Persia - Pro-Allied Neutral
Portugal - Neutral
Rumania - Axis Ally (Historic Date)
Spain - Neutral
Sweden - Neutral
Turkey - Neutral
Vichy - Neutral (in 3 groups)
Yugoslavia - Neutral

[vypuero]

on second thought, probably just plain Neutral

[firepowerjohan]

To answer your question:

No - should not be unrestricted. I would offer that as a preference option, though, where people could click as an "optional feature" = no DoW restrictions.

With what you have in mind, are Axis Allies going to align with the Axis once there is a DoW on Russia or not?

No, it is planned that they will join in their normal time scheme regardless. If adding certain triggers, then I think we would need to overhaul the diplomacy model which is not on our top priority.

[vypuero]

Then how does the second proposal look? I don't actually think anyone should be "Pro-Axis" and Neutral in this case. There should be the Pro-Allied Neutrals as described, or frankly Persia and Iraq should simply be allied. Historically both were. I do think you need to add a restriction on Allies vs. Communists - they cannot enter each other's territory!

I did not include Italy, I assume Italy is an Axis Ally that activates in Summer 1940 as you mentioned historically. Are the other models looking along the lines of what you had in mind?

[firepowerjohan]

Well, this is getting confusing.

Some examples


- Italy is proaxis neutral in 1939 and will join at their historical date in 1940
- USSR is proallies neutral in 1939 and will join fall 1941 (yes actually since in real WW2 they joined because of Axis DOW and if Axis do not DOW they will join later. USSR could actually join on October 1941 or whatever deadline we set for them)
- Greece is neutral so will join no side
- Iraq, Persia, Ireland are proallies but has no join date (mean they will only join if Axis DoW them)
- Switzerland is proaxis but has no join date (mean they will only join if Allied side DoW them)
- USA is proallies (and in this circumstance there is never any point in Axis DoW them so that is why we will use the histirical date as their entry deadline)
- Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland are currently all proaxis and have their individual dates set from historical dates when they join axis.



Especially the German minors are debateable, would players want to be able to invade them being Axis???