Battle Wagons

[Hermano]

Hello,
I'd like to try battle wagons with heavy weapons. I never did so i wish some advise if they are nice or not.
For example, in impact can I use the + against mounted like bwg, and + against foot like heavy weapon? Or just bwg + is allowed?
How do I move bwgs? just following the path through the short side, then shooting from the side as they were ships?

So tell me, are these bwgs worth added to a slow army done of pikes and spears like German (i can use them to protect flanks from cavalry charges)
Why only 1 dice per base in shooting phase? I think 2 dices might be more realistic, as a bwg carries many people.

[gozerius]

I thought I knew how Battlewagons worked until I read the FAQ. Now I don't have a clue.

[rogerg]

The wagons get a plus a against mounted at impact. The heavy weapon gives them a plus against most foot.
They move as you suggest.
I have a thread in the version two section on wagons. I believe I have more experience of using Hussites in competition than anyone else. I have found the wagons to be of minimal use, except as a barrier to light horse. They are so poor that I have decided not to use the army again.

I would be interested to know if you use the wagons and how they perform.

[DavidT]

The best advice on using battle wagons is: DON'T.
My friend John used a Hussite army on occaisions in DBM and, while never a tounament tiger, he did get some enjoyable games and a few victories under his belt. He also used them as part of his Later Hungarian DBM army (I think it was Later Hungarian) and they were a usefull addition to it as well.
His attempt to use battle wagons in FoG has resulted in 100% total annihalation on every attempt, total frustration and no enjoyable games.

[hazelbark]

I think one of the problems with BWG is they are specialized to figth certian kinds of opponents.

Mainly medieval knights. The hussites vs say Later Hungarian or a stronly mounted version of Med Germans is probably an interesting game.

Vs Roman legions or massed foot they don't work.

Now others know the Hussite wars better than I, but I dont' recall the wagons repelling the attacks of say city Pike type troops.

What I think most of the battles show is the BWG gave a aweful hard time to the enemy mounted who never really got comfortable fighting them.

Also it is technological innovation of a very short time span. They didn't last much past the Hussites.

[rogerg]

The accounts of the Hussite wars suggest the war wagons were an effective weapon. Otherwise, they would not have bothered with the expense. Mounted did not succeed against them. Foot seemed to get embroiled in close and confused fighting around the wagons. The Hussites had the advantage because they knew where they were.

Unfortunately in FoG they are of very little use. Most foot will walk over them easily. Effectively they are expensive heavy weapon foot, but spread over such a large frontage for the points cost they take casualties easily. Being unable to charge, they cannot engage the troops they are reasonable against, Because they manoeuvre so poorly they are sitting ducks for foot to take down.
even against knights they are practically quite weak. A serious knight charge, usually led by a commander, would be one factor down but with enough re-rolls to tie the wagons. In melee the knights will be better because of re-rolls.
Pairs of wagons are so vulnerable to the odd casualty and cannot co-ordinate because of 'dice to move'
Fours of wagons are too long a frontage to survive. Light foot bow will shoot them down without risk.

OK, this is a bit of a whine.

See my thread on v2 for proposed improvements. I suggest parity with quality foot such as pike (although Swiss superiors would have the edge), equality with skilled sword and an edge against other foot. The point is really that the wagons need to be tough enough to make it worth deploying the wagons as a barrier. No-one is going to use wagons if they are simply gifting 2 AP losses to any foot in the vicinity.

[gozerius]

If you really want to play Hussites right, replace the BW with MF mixed HW/XBow with mandatory FF. Or double armed Xbow/HW mob with mandatory FF.

[hazelbark]

The accounts of the Hussite wars suggest the war wagons were an effective weapon. Otherwise, they would not have bothered with the expense. Mounted did not succeed against them. Foot seemed to get embroiled in close and confused fighting around the wagons. The Hussites had the advantage because they knew where they were.

True.

I guess i have only used BWG w like 1 BG in a hungarian or Germans or such. So for me it was easier to see them as no central. But they worked. Massed Bwg probably has too many problems. Maybe something like they don't take base losses, except from Elephants or artillery. And then when they rout in place they only lose 1 base per JAP and don't auto remove at 1 base. So a 4 stand BG will not evaporate so quckly. Then maybe give the BG a +1 on CT vs bow fire or melee vs mounted.

That would make them a royal pain. Then if you storm them you have to guard yourself from the Hussite non-BWG counter attack.