Defending Woods?!

[76mm]

Defending woods, or the seeming impossibility of doing so, has become a real frustration for me in this game...I think in every game I've played where I've tried to defend a patch of woods, the defenders do not seem to have any advantage whatsoever, which to me is counterintuitive. This seems true whether or not the attacker is attacking from clear terrain or from another woods hex.

I usually try using non-spear medium troops to defend woods, or spear medium if that is all that is available. And lights of course. Attackers of all sorts seem to push any and all of the defenders right out of the way. In a current game, enemy cataphacts are attacking my troops in a wood, while they are not doing much damage, my troops are also not doing hardly any damage to them either. Seems to me that cats venturing into the woods would not be long for this world.

I can see how certain types of troops might not be able to defend well in woods (phalanx, cats, etc.), but in general I believe that it is far far too easy to push defenders out of woods--am I missing something?

[IainMcNeil]

Both attacker & defender will be disordered by the woods so whether you get any benefit depends on whether you are better at fighting disordered or not.

[rbodleyscott]

Both attacker & defender will be disordered by the woods so whether you get any benefit depends on whether you are better at fighting disordered or not.

And cataphracts will be more disordered (severely disordered) than MF (disordered), so will lose more dice, and will lose their lance factor, and not get a POA for charging MF in the open. The cataphracts will get a -1 CT modifier for being severely disordered, if they lose a round of combat.

OTOH MF spearmen will be disordered (and hence not steady), so the cataphracts will get their sword POA in melee even if the MF are not disrupted/fragged, and will still have armour advantage. The end result will be that the combat will be pretty even. (MF 3 dice but down a POA, cats 2 dice but up a POA).

(Best thing for fighting cataphracts in woods = Thracians or Bastarnae with heavy weapon, which negate the cataphracts' armour advantage, thus leaving the combat on equal POAs but the Thracians get 3 dice and the cataphracts 2.)

Either way, it's a poor use of an expensive troop-type to charge cataphracts into a wood.

[76mm]

Both attacker & defender will be disordered by the woods so whether you get any benefit depends on whether you are better at fighting disordered or not.

To me it is not very logical that a unit defending in woods does not have any advantage over an attacker, which would not be able to deploy its weapons very effectively because of all of the trunks, branches, etc. While the defender would also be hampered by the same factors, its mission (stand its ground) seems to make these factors less important than for the attacker (which must push the defender out).

[OTOH MF spearmen will be disordered (and hence not steady), so the cataphracts will get their sword POA in melee even if the MF are not disrupted/fragged, and will still have armour advantage. The end result will be that the combat will be pretty even. (MF 3 dice but down a POA, cats 2 dice but up a POA).

hmmm, this outcome ("pretty even" combat when cats attack spearmen in the woods) seems very bizarre to me. I'm not sure if cats could even stay on their horses if charging through a wood, even with no defenders (horses would fall, rider knocked off by branches, etc.). Defenders could hide behind trees, lame the horses, etc etc it sure seems like it should be an absolute disaster for the cats to venture into woods defended by spearmen.

[Either way, it's a poor use of an expensive troop-type to charge cataphracts into a wood.

clearly not best practice, but it seems to work better than it should...sure, they are less effective than usual, but generlaly don't suffer the kinds of casualites I would expect..

[rbodleyscott]

it sure seems like it should be an absolute disaster for the cats to venture into woods defended by spearmen.

Well I wouldn't do it.

(BTW check out the opening sequence of Gladiator for a cavalry charge in a wood. I know its only a film, but the horsemen did actually have to ride through the wood, and it was a bit of an eyeopener to me how easy it was - in an admittedly relatively open wood. Not all woods are Mirkwood).

[76mm]

...but the horsemen did actually have to ride through the wood, and it was a bit of an eyeopener to me how easy it was - in an admittedly relatively open wood. Not all woods are Mirkwood).

In a different thread someone else pointed out a battle in which Roman cavalry routed some Gauls (?) in a wood, and clearly there are many different types of forest, but in general it does not seem like cavalry suffers as much as they should when attacking in woods in FoG. While they definitely inflict fewer casualties, they also don't suffer very many casaulties, because the defender is typically disordered to some degree as well.

[rbodleyscott]

Last week my one of my opponents was complaining that the rules were too harsh on Macedonian lancers and pikemen attacking into a wood.

[76mm]

Last week my one of my opponents was complaining that the rules were too harsh on Macedonian lancers and pikemen attacking into a wood.

Well, people (including me!) can and will complain about just about anything, but did he express any convincing arguments to support his position? I can hardly think of any units less suited for attacking into woods...

[devoncop]

76mm.........

Agree with you entirely.

To my mind skirmishers should be best adapted to defending in woods as far as damage incurred is concerned whilst med irregulars seem ideal as far as defending.

As for Cats/HC and even light cav ............do me a favour !!!

I know at Waterloo Ney and Napoleon had "off days" but even they werent sending Curassier Divisions into woods to duel it out with the Rifles.Yes it is a different era. No , it is not a different principle.

[rbodleyscott]

I know at Waterloo Ney and Napoleon had "off days" but even they werent sending Curassier Divisions into woods to duel it out with the Rifles.Yes it is a different era. No , it is not a different principle.

Well you are welcome to send your Carthaginian chariots and cavalry into the terrain (not even woods) to duel it out with my Persian MF.

[TheGrayMouser]

I know at Waterloo Ney and Napoleon had "off days" but even they werent sending Curassier Divisions into woods to duel it out with the Rifles.Yes it is a different era. No , it is not a different principle.

Well you are welcome to send your chariots and cavalry into the terrain (not even woods) to duel it out with my Persian MF.

I just recently had my Persian Immortal guards, who were deployed on STEEP hills, slaughtered by Roxi lancers... They just charged right up and pummeled them
The Gods of War (and dice) clearly were not on the Persians side that day.

[IainMcNeil]

In a single combat anything can happen. You need to bear this in mind in all the combat results. In a line of combats the cavalry would have so little chance of success that it's approaching impossible.

[TheGrayMouser]

Oh I agree Iain, although it wasnt one combat in that battle it was 7- or 8 lancers vs 8 Immortals who were uphill in the rough that got manhandled.. My opponent was likly rolling average or good dice wheras my dice appear to have had glue on the 6 face

[IainMcNeil]

There must have been other factors feeing in - generals, overlap supports, etc. I would bet you a lot of money you would not lose that fight in even conditions

[TheGrayMouser]

There must have been other factors feeing in - generals, overlap supports, etc. I would bet you a lot of money you would not lose that fight in even conditions

He, he, its funny that I cant remember SOP's that are relayed to me at my job a day earlier but can remember in vivid detail a DAG battle from a week ago.

No overlaps, there is no support form impact combat, my opponenet had 1 leader, inspired, but he wasnt directly adjacent to any of his units...

Dont get me wrong, I am not griping about the combat mechanics and generally the expected outcome of lancers charging up into steep hills is they will get the worst of it.... Sometimes though, it is very possible to have a multitude of unexpected outcomes all in one or two turns in a game, which is fine, all you can do is grit your teeth and hope it happens to your oppoenent the next time

[76mm]

In a single combat anything can happen. You need to bear this in mind in all the combat results. In a line of combats the cavalry would have so little chance of success that it's approaching impossible.

I'm not talking about single combats, or even single battles. In every battle I've played, I've never seen a unit benefit from defending in the woods, although it is harder, but not nearly hard enough IMO, for cav to attack them. As I've said, while the cav might be reduced to inflicting 2-3% casualties, most of my units can't inflict more than 1-2% cas on them, so the cav comes out doing relatively well.

[deadtorius]

Playing the Galatian invasion of Macedon scenario a few times I have seen Alexander and my pikes go off on anarchy to chase down sneaky Galatians who hid in the woods and watched my army disintegrate before my eyes. Personally I would not want to send mounted or pikes to deal with the woods, I have however seen my lights do rather well against heavies in such places. The heavies are probably very disordered so its 2 dice each, they get the POA's unless I have javelins which give me a POA, but the lights tend to do rather well in those situations.

As for Immortals versus Roxi lancers, I too have been slaughtered like poor lost sheep by them. I don't think Persians stand up well against any foe who wants to close in and get personal, the were going to stand back and shoot you while you shoot us armies they tend to do better against, my opinion of them from several games with Persians.

[76mm]

Playing the Galatian invasion of Macedon scenario a few times I have seen Alexander and my pikes go off on anarchy to chase down sneaky Galatians who hid in the woods and watched my army disintegrate before my eyes.

I agree that pikes do very poorly in woods, and rightly so. Legions also don't do well in woods, that's fine. I'm more talking about when medium troops in woods are attacked by other medium troops, and the troops in the woods do not have any advantage over the attackers.

[omarquatar]

I agree that pikes do very poorly in woods, and rightly so. Legions also don't do well in woods, that's fine. I'm more talking about when medium troops in woods are attacked by other medium troops, and the troops in the woods do not have any advantage over the attackers.

same thing when you try to defend a river line

[76mm]

same thing when you try to defend a river line

I don't even bother to do that anymore...