Heavy Artillery set-up

[Skylarker6391]

On page 132 it states Heavy Artillery are assumed to be in prepared positions and therfore are not disorderd by terrain. On page 146 It states heavy arillery cannot be be deployed in difficult terrain. The question is if it is a prepared position, does it matter what the dificulty of the terrain is. Set up in an enclosed field or the edge of a forest or on the side of a steep rocky hill ?? I see this as a conflict anyone else ?

[hazelbark]

I think the argument is difficult is too much work to put guns in place. So you can put them in uneven or rough terrain and they igrnore the effect.

The idea was to limit the cheese possiblities of a guns of navarone set up. Also where in history were heavy bombards built into steep hills or forest for a battlefield use?

[iversonjm]

I think the argument is difficult is too much work to put guns in place. So you can put them in uneven or rough terrain and they igrnore the effect.

The idea was to limit the cheese possiblities of a guns of navarone set up. Also where in history were heavy bombards built into steep hills or forest for a battlefield use?

I believe heavy stone throwers also count as HA:

During the winter of 355 BC, Onomarchos drew on the Delphic treasury to recruit mercenaries and to bribe the Thessalians into withdrawing. The subsequent year, Onomarchos raided the territory of Locris, Doris and Boeotia, and lent support to the faction of the Tyrant Lycophron in Thessalia against internal foes. A Phokian army of 7000 under Onomarchus' brother Phayllus was sent to Thessaly in 353 BC to support Lycophron, but was defeated by Philip II of Macedon who intervened in support of the opposing faction. Onomarchos lead the Phokian army into Thessaly, defeating Philip in two pitched battles in which the Macedonians suffered heavy losses, forcing them to withdraw to Macedon.

In the first of those engagements, the Phokians made the first documented use of stone-throwing catapults (Lithobolos) in an ancient battle. Onomarchus deployed his hoplites in a cresent position between two steep Hills, and then feigned a withdrawal to draw the Macedonian phalanx into the confines of the ravine. At that key juncture, batteries of Phocian artillery deployed on the two hilltops were unmasked and opened fire, raining stones down on the packed Macedonian ranks. The Phokians then charged, and the Macedonian army broke, suffering heavy casualties, although Philip pledged that he would be back "like a Ram to butt harder."

[deadtorius]

And you will notice that it does not say that those were steep hills, just hills. I agree it would be unlikely to set up artillery in difficult terrain, how are you going to get those heavy stones and stuff there? Much better to put them in something that you can at least move through.
Perhaps FOG should allow Greeks to hide their artillery till it fires, might actually be more effective that way.

[hazelbark]

Name me two examples !

[nikgaukroger]

And you will notice that it does not say that those were steep hills, just hills. I agree it would be unlikely to set up artillery in difficult terrain, how are you going to get those heavy stones and stuff there? Much better to put them in something that you can at least move through.
Perhaps FOG should allow Greeks to hide their artillery till it fires, might actually be more effective that way.

Actually it does say steep hills - "between two steep Hills" and "Phocian artillery deployed on the two hilltops" indicate it. However, what is being quoted I have no idea - an original source or an interpretation? There is also the question of whether the hills were steep in FoG terms.

Also it has been suggested recently that the "stone throwers" were not actually artillery, something to do with the word used in the original source IIRC ...

[jlopez]

Polyaenus, Stratagems Book II, Chapter 38 (Onomarchus)

"When Onomarchus was fighting against the Macedonians, he took up a position with a steep and craggy mountain in his rear; and on the top of the mountain he placed in ambush a number of men, who were expert in throwing stones, with a supply of huge stones and pieces of jagged rock for this purpose. He then advanced, and formed up his army on the plain. The Macedonians began the attack with their javelins, which the Phocians pretended they were unable to resist, and retreated half-way up the mountain. The Macedonians eagerly pursued them, until they came within reach of the men in ambush, who then emerged and started to attack the Macedonian phalanx with huge stones. Onomarchus then gave the signal to the Phocians to turn around and renew the fight. The Macedonians, who were vigorously attacked by the troops in front of them, and grievously harassed by those above them, with difficulty succeeded in making a rapid retreat. On this occasion, Philippus the king of Macedonia is said to have cried out, "We do not run away, but retreat like rams, ready to renew the fight with greater strength."

I unfortunately do not have access to the original Greek version to check the translation so read in it what you will.

Julian

[iversonjm]

In the end I don't really have a problem with the rule, but Dan did pose the question. As to the translation, I have no expertise in Greek, but I am skeptical whether "men throwing huge stones" using only their muscles could produce the described effect.

Cue image of giant stone being dropped on pharasee in stoning scene from Life of Brian.

I understand that this was the Age of Heros, but really.

[hazelbark]

In the end I don't really have a problem with the rule, but Dan did pose the question. As to the translation, I have no expertise in Greek, but I am skeptical whether "men throwing huge stones" using only their muscles could produce the described effect.

Cue image of giant stone being dropped on pharasee in stoning scene from Life of Brian.

I understand that this was the Age of Heros, but really.

So they Titans could have been assiting? or is that Ragnarok?

[jlopez]

In the end I don't really have a problem with the rule, but Dan did pose the question. As to the translation, I have no expertise in Greek, but I am skeptical whether "men throwing huge stones" using only their muscles could produce the described effect.

Cue image of giant stone being dropped on pharasee in stoning scene from Life of Brian.

I understand that this was the Age of Heros, but really.

So they Titans could have been assiting? or is that Ragnarok?

Like I said, it's not my translation and I don't have the original Greek version to hand to check. The original may not say "huge" or "throw", it might be a bit more vague or even say "big" and "roll down".

I just thought it was worth posting because "stone-throwers" as in artillery pieces is not actually in the sources but is a modern historian's theory.