Wrong costings of troops

[ericdoman1]

Only spotted these but the levy in Danish lists have to be wrong.

[keithmartinsmith]

Why? They are correct as I can see and the same cost as the TT army list for the General Levy and some Select Levy are more expensive as we made heavy/weapon xbow combo units 1 point more expensive than the TT.

Keith

[ericdoman1]

Ok not sure about costings but double armed hvy foot, armoured ok undrilled at 4 pts? I have used a Welsh army and I have a poor billman at 5 pts can't remember if he was armoured.

Also skythian list, not sure if it is wrong but can only have 2 units max. I will go through other lists on ocassions so keep you posted about any discrepancies

[IainMcNeil]

If you do spot anything you need to be very specific about what you think the issue is. Which list, which troop type, what weapon you expect vs what you see. What cost you expect vs what you see. What min/max you expect vs what you see. Otherwise its very hard to verify if it is a bug and fix it. Thanks!

[pantherboy]

If you do spot anything you need to be very specific about what you think the issue is. Which list, which troop type, what weapon you expect vs what you see. What cost you expect vs what you see. What min/max you expect vs what you see. Otherwise its very hard to verify if it is a bug and fix it. Thanks!

I think he is talking about the Early & Later Danish list where you can buy 0-18 General Levy in the following configurations:

Protected / Defensive Spear / Poor / Heavy Foot / 4pts

Protected / Defensive Spear / (Xbow) / Poor / Heavy Foot / 4pts

Protected / Defensive Spear / (Bow) / Poor / Heavy Foot / 4pts

As you see they all cost the same but obviously the latter are better.

Cheers,

Steve

[Blathergut]

In the Ord. Burgundian list, the Mixed BG went from 4pts each to 8pts (with the recent patch) for:

Mixed Drilled ______ longbows Def Sp Average HF

They didn't get the protected status like the other Mixed BG in the list.

Those Danish seem to be a deal!

[keithmartinsmith]

On the points cost the costs are covered in the help.

On the Spearmen with rear rank crossbows they are not as good as the ones without. The system assumes the rear rank is crossbow rather than spear so does not get all the benefits of defensive spears. Keith

[TheGrayMouser]

On the points cost the costs are covered in the help.

On the Spearmen with rear rank crossbows they are not as good as the ones without. The system assumes the rear rank is crossbow rather than spear so does not get all the benefits of defensive spears. Keith

Hey Keith, can you be more specific about this?
I dont belive it is documented anywhere

[batesmotel]

On the points cost the costs are covered in the help.

On the Spearmen with rear rank crossbows they are not as good as the ones without. The system assumes the rear rank is crossbow rather than spear so does not get all the benefits of defensive spears. Keith

Hey Keith, can you be more specific about this?
I dont belive it is documented anywhere

Read the TT rules . Basically, the mixed units will not get the POA for being spears but do get the effect of cancelling opposing POA for things like swords and lances that spears cause.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

Ahh, but isnt that what defensive spears really do anyways (i think all mixed Bg's have defensive spears)

[rbodleyscott]

Ahh, but isnt that what defensive spears really do anyways (i think all mixed Bg's have defensive spears)

(Bearing in mind that a PC unit represents 4 TT bases in 2 ranks:)

2 base deep DSps get a POA (when not charging) too. 1 base deep spears (as in the mixed BGs) don't, but they do get extra dice for rear rank shooting at impact. Both 2 base deep and 1 base deep spearmen negate lance and sword POAs while steady and stationary.

So at impact, the mixed BGs are roughly as good as pure Sp, because the extra support shooting dice compensate for the lack of a POA, but after that they are not as good. OTOH they get some limited shooting, and they are better able to resist mounted charges in open terrain than other shooters because the front rank count as HF instead of MF.

As you can see, it is a bit complicated, but overall they are deemed as being worth the same points.

(And to complicate it further, Light Spears are not "Spearmen", and only need to be 1 base deep to get their POA, hence the cost of the mixed Assyrian foot in the EAP list, because they really are better than a pure Light Spear unit).

[Blathergut]

So the Burgundians are 8pts...they would go to 6pts if poor...is the longbow costing them the extra 2pts over the 4pt Danes?

[Blathergut]

Okay:

1. Finally found the Points Cost Chart in HELP. Thank you..it is helpful. You might add in the cost of DRILLED. I didn't see that anywhere.

2. I still don't see how the Mixed BGs work. I can find nothing specific in HELP on Mixed BGs.

3. I see how the Burgundian Mixed BGs are either 8 or 9 points.

4. I don't see how the Danes are at 4pts. According to the points chart: Protected Poor = 3pts + 1pt DefSp + 1 pt rear rank bow/crossbow = 5pts. What am I missing here?

[rbodleyscott]

4. I don't see how the Danes are at 4pts. According to the points chart: Protected Poor = 3pts + 1pt DefSp + 1 pt rear rank bow/crossbow = 5pts. What am I missing here?

You have to think in terms of the cost of each of the 4 notional TT bases making up a PC unit, then average it out.

Front rank: Protected Poor 3pts + 1pt DSp = 4 pts
Rear rank: Protected Poor 3 Pts + 1pt Bow/XBow = 4 pts

Average cost = 4.

The point being that a mixed unit does not get full effect from the DSp or the Bow/Xbow, because only half of the men have each.

[rbodleyscott]

So the Burgundians are 8pts...they would go to 6pts if poor...is the longbow costing them the extra 2pts over the 4pt Danes?

Probably 1 extra for the LBow and 1 for Drilled.

[Blathergut]

Thanks for trying, RBS.

According to that system, for the Ord. Burgundians:

Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + rear longbows 2pts = 7pts
Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + Def Spears 1pt = 6pts

unless it is:

Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + Def Spear 1pt + rear longbows +2 = 8pts [Which is the cost in the DAG.]

But this should make the Danes:

Protected Poor 3pts + Def Spear 1pt + rear bows 1pt = 5pts.

Ah well...a mystery to this olde brain. It would be nice to know just how the game does the points for the Mixed BGs.

[TheGrayMouser]

4. I don't see how the Danes are at 4pts. According to the points chart: Protected Poor = 3pts + 1pt DefSp + 1 pt rear rank bow/crossbow = 5pts. What am I missing here?

The point being that a mixed unit does not get full effect from the DSp or the Bow/Xbow, because only half of the men have each.

This is throwing this slightly off topic, but then what is the justification for units such as longbowmen who have swords getting full effects for both when they get charged into? (or have full effect of the sword if they themselves initiate impact) Also the lights spear/ archer units ie immortals

I guess the answer is in the bases as used in the TT, however makes less sense in the PC game as there are no bases .....

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks for trying, RBS.

According to that system, for the Ord. Burgundians:

Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + rear longbows 2pts = 7pts
Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + Def Spears 1pt = 6pts

unless it is:

Unprotected Average 4pts + Drilled 1pt + Def Spear 1pt + rear longbows +2 = 8pts [Which is the cost in the DAG.]

But this should make the Danes:

Protected Poor 3pts + Def Spear 1pt + rear bows 1pt = 5pts.

Ah well...a mystery to this olde brain. It would be nice to know just how the game does the points for the Mixed BGs.

Don't try so hard.

My explanation was correct.

The Burgundians list is wrong because they should be Protected, as per the TT lists, and they have been costed as Protected.

[batesmotel]

4. I don't see how the Danes are at 4pts. According to the points chart: Protected Poor = 3pts + 1pt DefSp + 1 pt rear rank bow/crossbow = 5pts. What am I missing here?

The point being that a mixed unit does not get full effect from the DSp or the Bow/Xbow, because only half of the men have each.

This is throwing this slightly off topic, but then what is the justification for units such as longbowmen who have swords getting full effects for both when they get charged into? (or have full effect of the sword if they themselves initiate impact) Also the lights spear/ archer units ie immortals

I guess the answer is in the bases as used in the TT, however makes less sense in the PC game as there are no bases .....

Swords have no effect in impact, only in melee. So they are not counting swords when charged into or if they charge. They are exactly the same as longbowmen without swords in impact.

Chris

[rbodleyscott]

4. I don't see how the Danes are at 4pts. According to the points chart: Protected Poor = 3pts + 1pt DefSp + 1 pt rear rank bow/crossbow = 5pts. What am I missing here?

The point being that a mixed unit does not get full effect from the DSp or the Bow/Xbow, because only half of the men have each.

This is throwing this slightly off topic, but then what is the justification for units such as longbowmen who have swords getting full effects for both when they get charged into? (or have full effect of the sword if they themselves initiate impact)

They don't. Swordsmen capability only counts in Melee, not at Impact. They don't get a POA for the rear rank shooters, only extra dice.

Also the lights spear/ archer units ie immortals

They get an impact POA for the light spear and extra dice for the rear rank shooters. In the TT game the rear rank dice are usually at a lower POA but I guess they did not implement this in the PC version - it does make them marginally more effective than in the TT game.

The logic of the system is that at impact only the front ranks normally take part, so only their weapons count for the impact POAs. However, rear rank archers do have an additional effect, so the BG gets extra dices compared with a unit without archers. (But only if the unit is being charged, not if it initiates the charge itself.)

Offensive or Defensive Spearmen are something of an exception, because they rely on deep formations for their effect, so lose their POA if they don't have enough ranks with spear. (However, it is still only the front rank who actually fight at impact).

I guess the answer is in the bases as used in the TT, however makes less sense in the PC game as there are no bases .....

It does not make any less sense. The unit is not a solid blob, it represents a certain number of ranks of men - so do the bases in the TT version. The same thing is being represented in both cases, and the internal mechanisms are (almost) the same.