Tatar - is there a good army in there?

[timmy1]

I have a Later Russian Mike's Models army but I am not able to find a list I like. The figures would pass for Tatar (well in low light, at a distance). I like the idea of drilled armoured superior shooty cav and LH Bow but not sure what to do with the other Cav. I am thinking Protected Average Drilled at 48 points for 4 base BG. Anyone any thoughts?

[peterrjohnston]

As I think I've said before, when everyone else is armoured and superior, being average and protected sucks. I'd rather have the LH and use the armoured superior cavalry as the heavy guys.

[david53]

I would go for Superior Cavalry and LH few BGs but quality ones

[LambertSimnel]

I would go for Superior Cavalry and LH few BGs but quality ones

Is the18 Armoured Superior Cavalry that the Tartars can get enough quality? or should they bring along an ally to get some more of them?

[expendablecinc]

I would go for Superior Cavalry and LH few BGs but quality ones

Is the18 Armoured Superior Cavalry that the Tartars can get enough quality? or should they bring along an ally to get some more of them?

Dont take 18 as you'll then need an unwieldy Bg of 6.

[kevinj]

I've found Protected or Unprotected cavalry can give you an edge against enemy LH, but they need to be Superior.

[ShrubMiK]

>As I think I've said before, when everyone else is armoured and superior, being average and protected sucks.

And as I think I've pointed out a few times recently, getting a lot more for the same points potentially sucks not at all.

The question is: do you think you will be able to utilise the extra numbers effectively, before your weaker BGs lose 1-on-1 matchups? And that's really a question to be judged against your own individual play style and intended plans for the army, not what other people would do with it.

>I've found Protected or Unprotected cavalry can give you an edge against enemy LH, but they need to be Superior.

I'm not sure whether to agree with that or not - need more playtesting! Since most LH opponents will be average, protected avge shooty cav in single line will shoot at equal immediate effect but cost considerably fewer points (assuming of course the LH are in 2 ranks). And the LH will still worry about getting into melee with them, even if no overlaps - same number of dice, and an extra POA (or two if not swordsman LH). The problem is that if the cav start to lose cohesion, they will not be able to escape in the same way the LH would be likely to. So superior would definitely help with avoiding getting into that difficult situation in the first place, but I'm not sure it is strictly a "need". The extra BG (or thereabouts) you can afford by not being superior might achieve that just as well.

[timmy1]

OK, how about this for an idea? (I would need to find some figures for the Naffatun but that should be easy enough.)

All BG 4 other than the MF which are 6. All mounted are Bow Sword. PBI 4. Terrain, Steppe and Agric. 1340-1500 AD.

IC
TC x 3
BG LH, Unprot, Sup, Drilled
BG LH, Unprot, Ave, Drilled
3 x BG Cv, Unprot, Sup, Undrilled
4 x BG Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled
2 x BG MF, Unprot, Ave, Bow
BG LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Firearm

797 points. The first BG of LH is Sup 'cos I have the points, no other reason. The MF and LF occupy any terrain that there is. The rest of the army plays scoot and shoot. The Arm Sup Cv is there for when you have to fight.

[benos]

loks over generaled. could lose a TC to get more troops
Protected or unprotected shooty cav need a general to babysit them and possibly be superior.
so drop one bg of cav to light horse and it could work?
I have used Hunnic cavalry (cav ptd, sup bw swd undr) as allies for my sassanids. worked okish as a) they had the general to look after them since the only other bgs he controlled were light horse who didn't hang around to fight.
but mostly it was a threat. too much to distract with a couple of light horse, but cheap compared to the pair of auxilia and single light horse BG that stayed on the wing to keep it honest.

Ben

[timmy1]

Ben

Thanks. All the Cv are Sup. I have the 3 TCs 'cos I fail loads of CTs. 1 less Unprot Cv and more LH would work.

[gozerius]

Real light horse don't need no stinking swords.

[timmy1]

Gozerius

I am sorry but I have to disagree (slightly). In more than half my games a BG of LH has found a flank to hit somewhere. While not the best at killing things from the flank, a sword gives a little edge.

That said, I think that 2 extra for the sword is too big a jump in the case of LH. If the list allowed the them without I would take them without.

Regards
Tim

[kevinj]

I'm with you on the generals, having the extra one allows you to use one LH BG with a general to hold up a flank, or send a speculative flank march.

I would think though that 2 BGs of non-armoured Cv is enough, but I'd take them as drilled for the extra manoeuvre benefits.You're going to want these in 1 rank most of the times, so being able to expand and move is very useful. I wouldn't bother with the foot though. Unprotected MF in 6s look to be asking for trouble, and not in a good way. I think you're better off getting more LH and using your PBI of 4 to try to keep you in the Steppes.

[david53]

OK, how about this for an idea? (I would need to find some figures for the Naffatun but that should be easy enough.)

All BG 4 other than the MF which are 6. All mounted are Bow Sword. PBI 4. Terrain, Steppe and Agric. 1340-1500 AD.

IC
TC x 3
BG LH, Unprot, Sup, Drilled
BG LH, Unprot, Ave, Drilled
3 x BG Cv, Unprot, Sup, Undrilled
4 x BG Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled
2 x BG MF, Unprot, Ave, Bow
BG LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Firearm

797 points. The first BG of LH is Sup 'cos I have the points, no other reason. The MF and LF occupy any terrain that there is. The rest of the army plays scoot and shoot. The Arm Sup Cv is there for when you have to fight.

Just a thoughtwhy the foot?

Being Medium Bow undrilled your just a target waiting to die why take the LF they will just hold you down and one BG will be a target.

Why the unprotected Cavalry you can only ever have these in one line hard to move and get out of trouble, I would take LH in there place more easier to get on the flank of an enemy unit. The idea is to pick on units on the end of the enemy line and i find LH do this better. The proper troops in this list are armoured cav superior drilled place these on the flank were they have space to move if your taking an IC your lights don't need to be superior against shooting the plus two is good enough with them to be average.

The whole use of this army IMO is movement and shooting not being held down by infantry. Its a mongol army in all but name, a good army to use if you have patience to shoot and scoot I have been very close to my base line before the opening has come to allow me to get through the enemy lines.

Of course I could be completely wrong here and it is just my impression

[grahambriggs]

OK, how about this for an idea? (I would need to find some figures for the Naffatun but that should be easy enough.)

All BG 4 other than the MF which are 6. All mounted are Bow Sword. PBI 4. Terrain, Steppe and Agric. 1340-1500 AD.

IC
TC x 3
BG LH, Unprot, Sup, Drilled
BG LH, Unprot, Ave, Drilled
3 x BG Cv, Unprot, Sup, Undrilled
4 x BG Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled
2 x BG MF, Unprot, Ave, Bow
BG LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Firearm

797 points. The first BG of LH is Sup 'cos I have the points, no other reason. The MF and LF occupy any terrain that there is. The rest of the army plays scoot and shoot. The Arm Sup Cv is there for when you have to fight.

The MF look terribly weak. most things on the table will bully them. If they are undrilled they won't even be able to get away.

What role do you see for the unprotected cavalry? A skirmish line? I might trade some in for LH myself

[IanB3406]

Being Medium Bow undrilled your just a target waiting to die why take the LF they will just hold you down and one BG will be a target.
--------------------------

I agree on the medium foot Bow, however I think the LF are very usefull. If you fight a heavy foot army and you want to pull some impetuous troops out of line they are very usefull, as your mounted won't do that.

[timmy1]

Really Big Thanks for all the input.

As you can tell, the steppes are not my natural home, more used to Principate Romans - there the MF Bow are used to scare away LH and Shooty Cav. To be honest, my DBM Post Mongol Russian army (which this a morph from) only has 12 bases of LH so that is all I have (unless I brazen it out by using my Skythian or Hu LH from armies 1000 years earlier - hey they have been turks in the late 1490s before now). If I used them I can do 4 BG of the Armoured Superior Drilled Shooty Cav, the IC, the 3 TCs and as many Average LH as there are points for (up to at least 900). I will give that a try in the pre-Muslim variant while holding my nose as this is starting to look very like a S*ss*n*d army to me

Dave, I would hesitate to argue with the master of the Girly Skythians. :)

Graham, as you and Dave are thinking along the same lines, I suspect I have got it wrong.

I will have a go and post a V3 at the weekend.

[timmy1]

Tatar 1242-1258 AD, PBI +4

IC
TC x 2
8 BG of 4 Unprot, Ave, Drilled, Bow, Sword LH
4 BG of 4 Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Sword, Cv
Fortified camp.

Look for as open a table as can get.

Plan is deploy 6 BG of the LH as far forwards as possible under the IC, two groups of 2 BG of Cv and one of LH under a TC, one on each flank. Shoot and scoot at whichever end of the line looks easiest, drawing the opponent into the final 6 MU of the battlefield if required. Fortified camp is there because I can afford it and if I have to raid round the flanks to escape it will last a little longer.

[david53]

Tatar 1242-1258 AD, PBI +4

IC
TC x 2
8 BG of 4 Unprot, Ave, Drilled, Bow, Sword LH
4 BG of 4 Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Sword, Cv
Fortified camp.

Look for as open a table as can get.

Plan is deploy 6 BG of the LH as far forwards as possible under the IC, two groups of 2 BG of Cv and one of LH under a TC, one on each flank. Shoot and scoot at whichever end of the line looks easiest, drawing the opponent into the final 6 MU of the battlefield if required. Fortified camp is there because I can afford it and if I have to raid round the flanks to escape it will last a little longer.

Good Plan never used a fortified camp but would think you'll outnumber anyones eleses LH except for another LH army so would'nt worry to much about losing it.

If this plan works for you great if not try dropping to a FC saving 30 points(you'll still have +3 PBI sometimes its better to go first). Drop the fortified camp another 24 points giving you 54 points add another FC to give you 1 x FC CinC 1 x FC (as Flank attack 9 needed instead of 10) plus 2 x TC's, leaving you 5 points over.

Dave

[timmy1]

Thanks. Well worth thinking about.