Ordonnance Burgundian mixed groups

[BenthamFish]

Just want to do a rules check that the Ordonnance Burgundian mixed DfSp + LgBw are as crap as they look.

Q1: As these are only 6-strong BGs, the formation pretty much has to be 3 wide with spears in front and bow behind. Is it legal to have 2 wide frontage with 2 DfSp front rank, 1 DfSp + 1 LgBw second rank, 2 LgBw third rank?

Q2: I presume that the 3 wide formation means that the DfSp won't get DfSp POA + in either impact or melee, as they're only 1 rank of spear?

Q3: If I'm right in my assumptions in the first two questions, why bother with these guys? From what I've seen of other mixed BGs, the Burgundian Ordonnance are the only ones that end up worse than a non-mixed BG of either similar troop type. 6 Defensive Spear would cost 6 points less and would be better, 8 Pike would cost the same and would be better (thinking about it, even 6 pike might be better!). 6 Longbows would be better (but would cost more). I'm thinking even 6 drilled crossbows would be better. My gripe here is that it seems to emasculate the Ordonnance Burgundian army quite a bit.

[kevinj]

Q1 - yes it would be legal to deploy as 2 Sp/1 Sp 1 Lbw/2Lbw.

Q2 - yes, you wouldn't get the POA for Spear as you are only in one rank. However, if you are steady then you do get the other benefits of spearmen, such as Lancers not getting their Lance POA at Impact, or Swordsmen not counting their Sword POA in Melee.

Q3 - These BGs can be effective against mounted troops. If deployed 3 wide, 2 deep, They will shoot with 1 die per base frontage i.e. as well as LF/Bw*, but at Lbw POAs. Having a HF front rank they do not give any mounted charging them the +1 that MF bowmen suffer. This, and the ability to negate Lance/Sword POAs means that there's a better chance of any charging Cav/Kn being forced to break off, then you can shoot them again. They may not be great, but they can be useful.

[BenthamFish]

Thanks for the reply.

I've used them before and found them to be very weak. I was thinking of giving them another go, but only after checking the rules. The major problem with them is their weakness in melee, particularly against any type of heavy foot. They're only 50/50 at best in impact against cav or knights; if they happen to get disrupted in Impact, then most troops will be ++ against them.

I think I'll give them another go though.

[viperofmilan]

These sound like supermen compared to my poor HF defensive spear/MF crossbow Italian militia from my Florentine Condotta list. They also are only allowed in 6s. Crossbow are at a minus versus most foot, and (if memory serves) never better than evens against mounted. And you get to re-roll all your 6s. Can get exiting in a hurry.

Kevin

[BenthamFish]

Indeed. You've only paid 30 pts compared to my 48 though. And you'll never put the xbows in the front rank - they'll break before that happens . I suggest spending 9 pts on field fortifications and the other 9 on something good!

Alan

[Rekila]

My most satisfactory victory over the French Ordenance in our Italian wars campaign was made possible by the superb performance of the Florentine militia against two enemy Swiss pikemen BG. The militia was finally wiped out but the Italians won the battle! (a rare event in this campaing )

[viperofmilan]

Rekila,

Tell me more !

Kevin

[Rekila]

Well it begins with the tactical geniality of the Florentine commander of putting them in open ground but on the border of uneven, so the 1st Swiss BG have to charge them disorder or endure the deadly fire of the xbow! But what shows the ingenuity of the Florentine commander at his best was the fact that the second BG of Swiss charges them in the flank, probably thinking on an easy victory. Poor fellows! Citizens against mercenaries, what makes all the difference here was patriotism! (The militia got an average 11 on all CHT!) And so the French main attack was stopped for several turns. Sadly the better moral can’t save you of Death rolls of 6+ hits! But it was an interesting battle especially for the curios idiomatic expressions used by the French commander.

[BillMc]

The mixed units can be okay, you just have to be honest with yourself as to why you paid the points for them and what you really want them to do. You are not buying front line melee troops so don't expect them to do well here nor be dissapointed if they dont win.

[viperofmilan]

Rekila,

It is very heartening to hear from another devotee of the (specifically) Florentine condotta. I myself would never consider a Lombard, Venetian, or Neapolitan variant. Its Florentines or nothing.

Your Florentines clearly and forcefully demonstrated the superiority of the folks who brought the poetry, arts, classical learning, and literature of the High Renaissance to Europe over those misbegotten chocolate and clock makers from the mountains. Why all list makers continue to get this wrong and rate the Swiss as superior to Tuscans is beyond me.

I wish your Florentines continued success.

Kevin

[Rekila]

We have played up to now four big battles on our 1494 campaign between the Ordonnace French and various Italian armies. Apart of the Florentine victory the rest were a disaster for the Italians. The Pope got one victory and one defeat, but a pyrrhic victory and an overwhelming defeat. The victory of the French over Naples was even more terrific. Apart for the heroism of the Florentine militia, I must say that they have the better army. It was the most balanced. The other Italians used lots of men-at-arms (average), the French gendarmes cut them systematically to pieces. The Florentines played an infantry battle. Pikes, crossbows, guns, swordsmen and obviously the MILITIA! Also lots FF with a reserve of Mounted Men-at arms and mounted crossbowmen. Not a very impressive army at first. The French go on the offensive but were unable to break the Florentine line (probably, I have not talked before of a Militia unit…) this allow the Florentines to redeploy his mounted units from the right flank ( lots of gendarmes there) to the left one and exploit the exposed position of the French units (because of a militia unit that…). It was a fine battle. As the campaign goes Italian liberty seems now to depend on the military performance of the Florentine citizen . Machiavelli dream make true!