Ingame feedback from: pantherboy

[pantherboy]

Just finished the tutorial and found it excellent. I love the cartoon style graphics, my wife finds the music score to be cute and nice easy interface. Looking forward to trying it out tomorrow. Looks like I'll be investing in this title aswell as your brilliant rendition of FOG.

[pipfromslitherine]

Glad you are enjoying it so far! Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

We're especially interested in hearing about features you think would benefit from more ingame explanation.

Cheers

Pip

[pantherboy]

Just been playing Normandy. Love the look of the game but would like to understand soft target attacks better. Against hard target I get the % for a hit/kill etc. but versus soft just an effectiveness number which means little to me. If a similar % readout would appear that would be effective. Also I find it a little slow watching the moves. I'm not sure if it is my PC or the game. Would like to quickly resolve attacks maybe clicking a second time to skip watching them shoot. Just need to know the result. Also why doesn't the priest fire in a direct fire mode. It was common to call them up for direct action versus a hard point.

Cheers,

Steve

[IainMcNeil]

For soft targets it is a % - we should add a % symbol to teh end. It is the % chance of each unit in the target tile dying though, so 50 means a 50% chance of each man dying. So it could be 0, it could be all.

Are you sure the priest canmt direct fire. We had it able to do so at some point.

[pipfromslitherine]

Just tried it out and Priests are capable of direct fire onto visible targets. You can never directly fire on (for example) pillboxes where you have not revealed any enemy inside, only suppress and bombard.

Also the range is less than their bombard capability.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Pip

[pantherboy]

Is it possible to speed up turns? I find watching the animation great initially but really boring after a while. It is turning me off the game. I prefer the option, like in John Tiller's campaign series, to expedite results and movement. If I need to concentrate on something then I can slow it down but the game isn't complex so I don't really need to do that.

Also, mostly due to the lack of a manual, what do the stats mean on a unit? Also entering sneak mode means what? Is it the equal of assault movement or just attempting to remain concealed? Can we assault move in the game? Are units limited in the defensive fire they can dish out? Does it use up a certain amount of AP's thus they can't respond to further movement?

Cheers,

Steve

[pipfromslitherine]

+ when you say speed up turns, what do you mean? The AI turn?

+ Which stats do you mean? There should be tooltips for most of them, but it may be we need some extras.

+ Sneak mode means you are less likely to be spotted and fired on, and also I think that you gain some damage reduction.

+ I'm not sure what you mean by assault move. Infantry can assault enemy units in an all or nothing charge.

+ Units are limited by the number of shots they have (shown on the UI at the bottom), though they gain an extra shot when reacting. There should be a tip on this in the 1st desert mission - if you missed it then perhaps we need to make them more obvious. APs are only used for other actions, like movement or unloading.

Hope that helps, and thanks for your feedback.

Cheers

Pip

[pantherboy]

When I talk about speeding up turns I'm refering to the animation. For example I move a squad from point A to point B so I need to watch them run currently and I'd like to speed up that movement. In the campaign series if you set it to fast then they zip around pausing if shot at and the speed of shooting is just as fast. To do a single turn at the moment can take alot of time so I'm becoming bored. The game operates on basic mechanics that are intuitive so I don't need much time to do things. I like playing FOG PC at maximum animation speed (it is vital in the 1000pt battles) so if you have the same option then it would really help. This is probably the only reason I wouldn't buy it.

In the purchase screen the stats that appear when you highlight a unit. I haven't noticed any tool tips there. (yes there are, I just noticed them though I have no reference for what they equate to in real terms.)

Assault movement is where infantry opt to use fire and movement tactics. It makes a huge difference when crossing open terrain from my combat experience in the army. Basically attempting to minimize the target presented to the enemy plus laying down suppressing fire. For example this is abstracted in the boardgame Squad Leader by not incurring a defensive penalty when moving by assualt movement. In Normandy using the building on the beach to move adjacent to the pillbox seems to not help significantly. I move in with sneak and still get gutted. This also brings up another point regarding the covered arc of a pillbox. Currently it seems they have a 360 degree field of fire thus negating flanking movement. If they want to fire outside of covered arc then the defenders would need to deploy into the trenches connecting to the pill box which makes them more vulnerable to fire. Also remaining concealed in a pill box seems strange. In terrain that covers a hex then yes but if confined to one point then you should be able to fire directly at them but you wouldn't know the results. So they could remain unspotted but you should be allowed to direct fire. The advantage of the pill box is its defensive cover.

I saw the tip in the desert mission but didn't understand what those bullet symbols meant so I assume now that is the number of shots allowed. Cool got it.

Also just had an error occur in Normandy game crashing it. I couldn't copy the error message but it talked about an unmanned unit enetering a tile or something and it couldn't handle it so closed the game. Not sure what it was saying. It was the ai's turn and was trying to move some engineers that needed to retreat.

[pipfromslitherine]

Having a speed slider for the player turn would be pretty simple - we already speed things up on the AI turn for example.

The armour and AP etc stats are really just to give players who perhaps aren't knowledgeable on the period some indication of the quality and type of unit. The internal model of how (for example) AP works is just too numbery to try and show to the average player.

We do abstract some things - arcs of fire from defences being one of them. The concealing is also an abstraction - you may know that they are there (or likely to be) but you can't 'see' them do target your fire (unless they show themselves) so you are limited to suppression fire. They're all fair points though - thanks for going into such detail.

It definitely true that advancing infantry across open ground in pretty any way in the game is pretty brutal...

I'll double check that all the icons on the UI have tooltips.

Cheers

Pip

[pantherboy]

Great. With a speed slider then I'll definitely pick up the title. I don't really care how things are modeled in game, e.g. abstractions of covered arcs, since it applies to both sides. Overall it seems quite sound the logic behind everything though I'm not sure what kind of Puma's those Germans are using at Normandy. Are they with 50 or 75mm guns because they seem to destroy the Shermans easily headon.

Steve

PS Leaving for Maldives tomorrow morning so won't have a chance to do the multi-player unless it is still in after a week.

[pantherboy]

I just played my first multi-player versus Obsolete and came out with a bitter taste for the game. A number of flaws became apparent when playing an opponent rather than the AI.

1) Didn't realise walls reach to the sky and are made of steel. Totally wipes the tank doctrine of looking to go hull down behind one. Also why bother having tracks if you can't cross such an obstacle. Bocage I can understand but walls or hedges I don't.

2) The defensive fire logic is hopeless. I place 2 Puma's and a Panzer IV watching a gap in the hedges expecting enemy tanks to flank. I have 3 shots with each vehicle available as I didn't shoot any of them in my turn. Two Chaffee's appear with a truck and fire multiple times killing all 3 without my guys firng once. Also I question the veracity of the odds for the Chaffee's to hit at what seems to be long range in this game while on the move so easily.

3)The use of trucks to draw defensive fire. Just drive them in front of a guy you want to deplete of defensive fire then advance up.

4) The game is weighted to clumping as much firepower into a confined space as possible. Clump 4-6 tanks and overwhelm unless the enemy deploys in a tight area and does the same. This problem is probably due to the scale and providing ranges that work for this type of game rather than to be a reflection of historical accuracy. (And yes I understand the principle of bringing a 3-1 firepower superiority against a single point to attack and I've applied it in the field with men under my command but I'm talking about a gamey way of play).

etc.

[pipfromslitherine]

The hedges in the game are generally the non-tank-friendly Normandy hedges (as I understand it). Walls may well not represent well their actual function, as they do seem pretty low and see-over-able I will admit.

The reaction fire might be a little too cautious, I think it attempts to determine the likelyhood of a kill. Having said that, I'm just working on some of the movement stuff, and the sneak changes might have introduced a bug in the reaction chance, I'll get back to you if I determine that to be the case.

I'm not sure you'll get enough trucks to use that trick a lot .

I think it does favour concentrated firepower, but I'm not sure how we can prevent that? As you say, it makes sense not to string out your units. Perhaps one for Iain to speak to.

Thanks for all your feedback.

Cheers

Pip

[Obsolete]

One issue I have with trucks is it seems a bit of an exploit when moving with loaded units. One can purposely waltz right into the face of the enemy, knowing that when/if he is hit, his transported units simply get dismounted on the spot. I would think there should be an added kill-check on the cargo as well.

[pantherboy]

One issue I have with trucks is it seems a bit of an exploit when moving with loaded units. One can purposely waltz right into the face of the enemy, knowing that when/if he is hit, his transported units simply get dismounted on the spot. I would think there should be an added kill-check on the cargo as well.

Absolutely right. I served in a mechanized infantry battalion and I can guarantee you we try to dismount before action. It is primarily used to move us from point A to B quickly and then provide a firesupport role when engaged.

Cheers,

Steve

PS I'll try picking up some of your other games Obsolete once I finish work. Now that I understand the mechanics a bit better I'll hopefully make more of a show of it.

[pantherboy]

I'm not sure you'll get enough trucks to use that trick a lot .

Pip

Even if meant tongue in cheek I find such comments inane. You obviously realise that the truck is being used incorrectly and can be exploited to perform ridiculous scouting functions. Rather than say you'll run out of trucks simply fix the gamey aspect. Maybe change the defensive fire logic to not fire at trucks, plus provide trucks with zero spotting capability and then still have them count as VP's when destroyed. This would drastically alter the way they are used. Also any passengers should check for survival if the vehicle is destroyed otherwise why buy APC's just drive up in trucks.

[IainMcNeil]

Phil is our technical director. He's a genius at programming but not the best person to ask about historical accuracy

I've put a bug on the bug list to make all units on board a destroyed truck have a 50% chance of survival so it wont be a great way to approach the enemy.

On the truck issues its a tricky one. Trucks are counted up in the casualty count but this doesnt really mean anything.

We can tell reaction fire to ignore trucks but then you can use them freely to recon the enemy and to drive units up to fortified positions and unload without being fired on. We could say only empty trucks are ignored but this still allows empty trucks to move around too freely. Giving trucks a reduced sighting range might help for that but this could feel wrong in other ways.

We could say it does not cost an ammo point to reaction fire against trucks. This would prevent you using them to draw fire as the enemy would still have as many shots after firing.

We could do some sort of morale check - when a truck spots an enemy unit it could refused to go any closer to it. This could end up with all sorts of issues though so probably not a good idea. I wonder if we could use the threat map - trucks could refuse to move to any tiles that have a higher threat map for the enemy than their side, or have a % chance to refuse. E.g. when the threat map for their side is higher they always obey. When it is lower there is an increasing chance they'll refused to obey the order and lose their turn. If the threat map is great than 3 to 1 they always refused to move.



I wonder if we could charge trucks more for moving in to hidden tiles to make it harder to explore with them.

[Obsolete]

"We could say it does not cost an ammo point to reaction fire against trucks."


I was going to suggest the exact same thing. By giving free SHOTS, you deny the cheat of sucking-up-shots from the enemy.

Of course, someone can still use the trucks as scouts regardless and just RISK IT. But I do the same with all my units anyway, haha so don't worry about it.

[Obsolete]

PS I'll try picking up some of your other games Obsolete once I finish work. Now that I understand the mechanics a bit better I'll hopefully make more of a show of it.

I'm looking forward to it. I currently have 9 games in progress, with 7 completed so far. 100% win ratio. While I'd LIKE to think it's due purely to my Master's degree in Panzer General, and my Minor in Advanced Squad Leader, I suspect there may be a little bit of luck in there too Nevertheless, always looking for a stronger challenge. The embarrassing part is, I think I won the final scenario on my first attempt, and then on my second this morning I lost to the bloody AI.

[pantherboy]

The first Normandy scenario keeps crashing and the multiplayer winter village also.

[pipfromslitherine]

When you get a crash, please post the last 40 of so lines of the error.log file from your BBCBA directory in My Documents.

Are these random crashes, or do they occur when something happens?

Cheers

Pip