Nikephorian Spearmen and Archer Builds

[GRegets]

As a recent convert to FOG, I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to build these units, given the 1/2 to 1/2 ratio needed;

Heavy Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen (1/2 of the total minimum buy of 12)
Medium Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Bow (1/2 of the total minimum buy of 12)

In a 2/3 Spear to 1/3 Bow configuration, this seems like a no brainer, but in the 1/2 to 1/2, I'm wondering how others managed this?

Additionally, if anyone has a suggested 800pt Nikephorian Army list they have used, that would be helpful.

Thanks ...

[philqw78]

These BG are better in 8's as they can go 4 deep, thus getting the spear POA and bow fire in impact. Try Tim Porters madaxeman site for lists, there's a few on there.

[GRegets]

But the 4th rank doesn't shoot though, right? ... or perhaps there is a formation used to accomplish this, like an L shaped thing, etc ...?

Sorry for the basic nature of this question.

[philqw78]

No fourth rank cannot shoot.

[GRegets]

So, we are back to the original question ... the best way to organize the requirements, given the notion (which has served me well in other sets), that the "best" organization is one that allows troops you are paying for, to actually fight or shoot, and paying or thing to do neither is generally a bad organization.

How do people feel about taking three units with four spearmen and two archers ... and taking a unit of six archers in an all archer unit? Is this even legal, given the lists, or do you have to buy them with each unit organized 1/2 and 1/2?

[philqw78]

IIRC BG must be half and half, so yours would be illegal. 8's are still good, or at least the best of a poor choice.

[hazelbark]

Heavy Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen (1/2 of the total minimum buy of 12)
Medium Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Bow (1/2 of the total minimum buy of 12)

These tend to be able to defeat light attacks, push some folks around. But they tend to have a tough time if they are going to be assaulted by quality troops in equal numbers.

I tend to like 6s. 3/3 if I plan to use them as a supporting BG to the main fighting units. If I think they need serious fighting then I think 8s and I need to commit a TC at impact. The re-rolling the 3rd dice for shooting gives you the "chance to be devastingly lucky" at impact and cripple even quality mounted. In 8s a small quality mounted may not get what they need to disrupt you, then they break off and hopefully something elsewhere is winning or getting on people's flank.

[rbodleyscott]

So, we are back to the original question ... the best way to organize the requirements, given the notion (which has served me well in other sets), that the "best" organization is one that allows troops you are paying for, to actually fight or shoot, and paying or thing to do neither is generally a bad organization.

How do people feel about taking three units with four spearmen and two archers ... and taking a unit of six archers in an all archer unit? Is this even legal, given the lists, or do you have to buy them with each unit organized 1/2 and 1/2?

As has been stated, you are labouring under a misunderstanding. It is not the total number of spearman and archers in the army that have to be 1/2 and 1/2, but each BG must be 1/2 and 1/2. The only choice is whether to have BGs of 6 or 8.

[batesmotel]

An 800 point, pre-1042 Nikephorian Byzantine list I've used:

1 Skirmishing Javelinmen LF Unprotected Poor Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 2 12
2 Skirmishing Archers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
3 Skirmishing Archers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
4 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 12 48
5 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 12 48
6 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4 19 76
7 Spearmen HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen - - 4 7 28
7 Archers MF Protected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4 7 28
8 Spearmen HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen - - 4 7 28
8 Archers MF Protected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4 7 28
9 Rus Mercenaries HF Protected Average Undrilled - Offensive spearmen - - 8 7 56
10 Kataphraktoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 1 23 23
10 Kataphraktoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 1 25 25
11 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4 19 76
12 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4 19 76
13 Kataphraktoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 1 23 23
13 Kataphraktoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 1 25 25
CinC TC - - - - - - CinC 1 35 35
Sub TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
Sub TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
Sub TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35

Chris

[GRegets]

As has been stated, you are labouring under a misunderstanding. It is not the total number of spearman and archers in the army that have to be 1/2 and 1/2, but each BG must be 1/2 and 1/2. The only choice is whether to have BGs of 6 or 8.

Thank you much!

[ethan]

Depending on the opponent you could alwasy go with "unmixing" the formation by having the spearmen double ranked on one side with archers double ranked next to them. The main problem is that you are looking at two turns to change the formation back or switch the spearmen/archers around.

[DavidT]

I find that 8s work. If you are facing something which you want to shoot at and which isn't particularly powerful in hand to hand, you deploy in 2 ranks of 4 with the archers forming the second rank. This gives maximum shooting. However, if the opponents are nasty hand to hand troops, you contract into 4 ranks with the archers in the third and fourth. You loose the shooting (except in impact from the third rank) but you are now capable of holding your own in hand to hand.
Funnily enough, mixed Assyrian formations with Light Spear, swordsmen in the front rank are much better as they can stay in two ranks and get the shooting benefit while still being capable in hand to hand.

[GRegets]

Thank you for all the suggestions. I'm sure as with everything, its all how you use it.

I'm sort of trying to decide between Early and the Nike's ... obviously I like the punching potential of the Nike's ... but for flavor it's hard to beat the Early period army (and I like having Huns!)

One last question ... if you bought the Nike's and purchased a lot ot Elite troops, how do people feel about going with three generals at 800 points?

This has been very helpful, and thanks again to those helping out.

[philqw78]

I rarely take more than three generals, and wouldn't with Nikes and elites.

[batesmotel]

I rarely take more than three generals, and wouldn't with Nikes and elites.

If I was re-using the list I posted earlier in this topic, I might well go with an IC and 2 TCs instead of 4 TC. Especially if facing an opponent with lots of fire power, the +2 IC umbrella of invulnerability could be useful.

Chris

[ethan]

Thank you for all the suggestions. I'm sure as with everything, its all how you use it.

I'm sort of trying to decide between Early and the Nike's ... obviously I like the punching potential of the Nike's ... but for flavor it's hard to beat the Early period army (and I like having Huns!)

Thematic Byzantines are another option. The late Thematics would have the same looking troops as the Nikes and IMO have a few desirable characteristics.

- The Thematic heavy foot is basically just defensive spear which I think is preferable
- You can take Thematic foot without having to take any defensive spear, so you can get some LF withotu any HF
- You can some internal LH IIRC
- I believe having access to the average lancers is an advantage as it let's you "bulk" up the army relatively cheaply. Yes they are vulnerable, but in numbers they are dangerous.