Varangians - HvArm, Sup or Arm, El?

[NickW]

This has probably been asked before, but I didn't find it from my superficial search.

What way works best for running the Varangians?

It would be cool to run them as heavily armoured, elite but that seems overkill and too expensive.

The points costs I think are the same for heavily armoured, superior and armoured, elite.
I'm leaning toward the former, but I'm interested in other views.

Also, I assume that running them in a BG of 4 bases would work best?

[pyrrhus]

I would go for hvyly armoured to get the melee poa against most inf (just dont fight other hw troops ) and use a commander if you want to bump them to elite's .Could be a little shaky on the impact against knights/lancers . dont know about bgs size get two of 4 if you can bot a 6 bg would be tuff.

[BlackPrince]

If you are only using one BG of Varangians then run them as 6s. From using men at arms BG in 4s they do struggle to win if they hit a large enemy BG. In the melee phase you are rolling 4 dice and the enemy can be rolling 8 dice (this happens to me a lot) if with a POA+ it will take time to kill the enemy BG and sometimes you do not have the time to bash it over 4 or 5 turns. Then off course there is the risk of a bad death roll, then your Varangians are not looking so good they only roll 3 in melee. Even with a POA++ the Varangians with a casualty are rolling 3 dice and will avaerage about 2.8 hits where as an eight base BG on POA++ will average 2.4 hits. This is the worse case but it is something you need to consider if you are only using one BG.

Keith

[hazelbark]

I would prefer to face 4s not a 6 or 8 of these guys.

A lucky kill has a profound impact on a 4 stand BG.

Also a general with them helps a lot more if they are 6s.

I think the danger when using Varangians is they often sit out there unsupported and are expected to win. Usuallyunsupported units will die, so do you win the battle while these guys go down. And if they are the winners for you, then you need them 6s or 8.

I'd avoid elite unless playing 2000 point games.

[benos]

one small point here, the nikephorian byzantine is probably to only army that could give these guys rear support if they are elite. not many armies get elites and can rear support them.
i would say if you plan to use them ,take 2 4's move them together and have the kataphractoi behind them supporting.
that said it is a lot of points on not a lot of fighting power

Ben

[philqw78]

Nikes only get 6. But they are better. The problem with both Nike and Komnenan Varangians is getting someone to fight them. For my money the Nikephoran HA, Elite, Off Sp are the hardest troops in the game. But they will have problems against less than half their points cost of Irish.

[madaxeman]

one small point here, the nikephorian byzantine is probably to only army that could give these guys rear support if they are elite. not many armies get elites and can rear support them.
i would say if you plan to use them ,take 2 4's move them together and have the kataphractoi behind them supporting.
that said it is a lot of points on not a lot of fighting power

Ben

2x4 elite Varangians PLUS 2 elite cavalry for rear support..?

What are you expecting to have to fight??? Chuck Norris???

[benos]

one small point here, the nikephorian byzantine is probably to only army that could give these guys rear support if they are elite. not many armies get elites and can rear support them.
i would say if you plan to use them ,take 2 4's move them together and have the kataphractoi behind them supporting.
that said it is a lot of points on not a lot of fighting power

Ben

2x4 elite Varangians PLUS 2 elite cavalry for rear support..?

What are you expecting to have to fight??? Chuck Norris???

no just Nik using his dice! They always roll 3's for me so need to be able to reroll the 3's

or i could remember my own dice

[Kemmler]

I think the danger when using Varangians is they often sit out there unsupported and are expected to win. Usuallyunsupported units will die, so do you win the battle while these guys go down. And if they are the winners for you, then you need them 6s or 8.

I played a 6 bases bg of EL-Harm Varangian. Pretty expensive but actually nikephorians dont have many other valid options.
Well, ok, they r far slow, and u know that. But it's almost the only unit in the game that can win on its own. They got no problems against knights, pikes or multiple enemy in the front. Actually u can expect them to stand stubborn even if charged on flanks and rear.
The point is just to get them into melee

[iversonjm]

I know that I am in the minority on this, but if you buy them as elite they generally don't need generals or rear support, which means that you can use that stuff to prop up something else. The problem is that although the Varangians are devastating against some armies (knights, romans) they are useless against others (shooty cav, drilled cav, drilled MF) because everyone runs away from them. There is also the problem that buying the Varangians obligates you to buy lots of largely useless skutatoi.

I have to say though, there is nothing like the look on a Roman player's face when he realizes that his legions are fighting in melee at a -- POA....

[bahdahbum]

What would be nice is , now that the last army book is out, we may discuss the first list, such as the NIKES and rework them azs the last , german list, were really studied . Remember my discussion about the Varangian guard . Now it might be time to rediscuss it and even if FOG R is coming, the conceptors of the game should at least begin to listen to what people ask them : can we discuss the lists and will they really listen to our proposals

[iversonjm]

Yeah, I'd have to say that the Nikes are at the top of many if not most people's list of broken armies.

[spikemesq]

Why are the Nikes broken?

Spike

Just curious.

[batesmotel]

Yeah, I'd have to say that the Nikes are at the top of many if not most people's list of broken armies.

Now, now, just because you didn't beat my Late Achaemenids when you used your Nikephorians against me .

Actually, I don't think it's a broken or historically inaccurate army list. While I may have a couple issues with the list like the lack of LH before 1042 or the initial date for availability of the Varangian Guard, on the whole I think it does give a reasonable effect for the army. I would play the army more often but my Nikephorians are 25mm and locally 15mm is the scale most people are playing.

Chris

[ethan]

I think the late Thematics may be a bit better actually.

[batesmotel]

I think the late Thematics may be a bit better actually.

I like the pre-1042 Nikephorians better because they have the option of a second unit of cataphracts. I think you really need two of these units for punch and that a single two stand BG is insufficient.

Chris

[iversonjm]

I know others have differing ideas about this, but the problem from my and a number of others' perspective is the skutatoi, which can't perform their intended role of forming a defensive bastion. They have two options:

1. deploy in two ranks, in which case they get out shot by cavalry (who if played correctly can concentrate 4-6 dice against the skuts while receiving no more than 2 dice per unit in return fire), and run over by decent foot and armored horsemen (who are up against them in melee and up two against them if they wait until the skuts get disordered); or

2. deploy in four ranks, in which case they effectively end up as a two-wide protected defensive spear unit that costs more than a pike block.

Given that you really have to buy at least 16 bases of skuts if you buy foot (if you get 12 they are 6s that must fight in 2 ranks and get run over) this is a fairly large problem. The net result is that you end up having to either forego foot entirely (which robs the army of a lot of its flavor and appeal) or play with an army that has over 1/8 of its points sunk into troops that are a liability.

[batesmotel]

I know others have differing ideas about this, but the problem from my and a number of others' perspective is the skutatoi, which can't perform their intended role of forming a defensive bastion. They have two options:

1. deploy in two ranks, in which case they get out shot by cavalry (who if played correctly can concentrate 4-6 dice against the skuts while receiving no more than 2 dice per unit in return fire), and run over by decent foot and armored horsemen (who are up against them in melee and up two against them if they wait until the skuts get disordered); or

2. deploy in four ranks, in which case they effectively end up as a two-wide protected defensive spear unit that costs more than a pike block.

Given that you really have to buy at least 16 bases of skuts if you buy foot (if you get 12 they are 6s that must fight in 2 ranks and get run over) this is a fairly large problem. The net result is that you end up having to either forego foot entirely (which robs the army of a lot of its flavor and appeal) or play with an army that has over 1/8 of its points sunk into troops that are a liability.

If the skutatoi deploy in two ranks for a BG of 4+4, they are basically shooting even with 2 BG of LH bow for fewer points, e.g. the skutatoi take 4 dice of shooting against an 8 strength BG vs 2 x 2 dice for two BGs of 4. Cavalry can get denser shooting but is likely to be a good deal more points than the skutatoi are even for average skutatoi. Granted that the cavalry are at a plus POA in melee which could be bad for the skutatoi if it's even frontage. But if the skutatoi survive the one round of melee then the cavalry has to break off and take shooting again. The skutatoi aren't an irresistable force against mounted but I think they are reasonably effective. Given how expensive the mounted are for a Nikephorian army, I don't think I would want to buy more expensive armoured skutatoi even if they were available in the list.

Maybe we should try a game with me running your 15mm Nikephorians against your Syrian states list or something similar. I do admit I was somewhat surprised that your Nikephorians didn't do a number on my all mounted Late Achaemenid list.

Chris

[iversonjm]

The four dice v. four dice is really the best case scenario for the skuts, as you usually don't have enough troops to form a wall, and therefore end up having units come in at angles and facing off against 5 or 6 dice or shooting back with only 2-3. Worse case is 6 dice rerolling 1s from a pair of bw/swd cav, who will promptly disorder them and run them down. Or you could just walk up a unit of average MF bows and outshoot them and if necessary outfight them... but I digress, as the possibilities for killing the useless fools are virtually endless. The bottom line is that you have to base your battle plan around keeping the skuts away from any real threat, which makes the whole army feel wrong. Its like the old WRG days (of which I had a little experience) when if you played the Macedonians you had to hide the unshielded Companions behind the phalanx to keep them from being shot to pieces. Did that mean that the Macs never won? No. But did it feel like you were playing Alexander's army? Again no. Same thing here. Can the Nikes win? Sure. Are they more likely to win if you use the skuts as they were intended? Nope.

[philqw78]

Can the Nikes win? Sure. Are they more likely to win if you use the skuts as they were intended? Nope.

They came third at Britcon and the Skutatoi did very well aganst my Cav when I fought them. I do think they would give average armoured cavalry a proper going over. But if the enemy wants to invest 3 BG of super armd bow cav against them you should be able to win elsewhere. And we cannot, unfortunately, force people to play historically.