As the rules develop and our ideas crystalise we are continually making changes, but we're confident that what we have right now is very playable. The biggest problem is getting all these ideas down on paper in a way that others can read and repeat! One of the biggest challenges is the wording and how things are presented to the player to make them clear and easy to understand. To this end we have been reviewing the documentation from start to finish. As part of this process we have updated the design philosophy to better explain our approach and it can be found at http://www.slitherine.com/artofwar/
The beta test is underway and we plan to release some more detail in the not too distant future.
Updated Design Philosophy
Moderators: hammy, philqw78, terrys, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators
Notifications
Ian,
just a thought but it might be courteous to advise people via (for example) national organisations, IWF, dbmlist, ancmed list etc about a new rules-set, at the moment the secrecy around it is ridiculous. The fact that even the development team is unknown seems ridiculous.
regards
Doug M.
just a thought but it might be courteous to advise people via (for example) national organisations, IWF, dbmlist, ancmed list etc about a new rules-set, at the moment the secrecy around it is ridiculous. The fact that even the development team is unknown seems ridiculous.
regards
Doug M.
I do agree with Doug . I can understand the need for now to have a limited playtest team, but as others have no access to the debate - just an access to be able to read what happens, to better understand it all and be able to decide if they are interested - well the others, me also we wonder what is really behind it . The DBM lists can be a way of informing people ( even the french DBM list , some of them understand english you know ) . Secrecy as it's value, but after a time frustration is born from it !
Also, I quickly discovered that each country as it's own gameplay philosophy . The designers might try to contact testers from other countries and I do not speak for myself even if I am really interested . But my point is if you have some betatester outside UK, information will leak and people might be more and more interested, you will also have some feedback from people with another "feeling", another gamestyle, another point of view .
Last Week end I was at Strasbourg for a DBM tournament . There were 24 players were last year there was 40 . And some wanted to know if somebody had heard of some new rules game set ...art of something ! . Many had already heard it was the come back of WRG 7th . So please communicate outside UK
Also, I quickly discovered that each country as it's own gameplay philosophy . The designers might try to contact testers from other countries and I do not speak for myself even if I am really interested . But my point is if you have some betatester outside UK, information will leak and people might be more and more interested, you will also have some feedback from people with another "feeling", another gamestyle, another point of view .
Last Week end I was at Strasbourg for a DBM tournament . There were 24 players were last year there was 40 . And some wanted to know if somebody had heard of some new rules game set ...art of something ! . Many had already heard it was the come back of WRG 7th . So please communicate outside UK
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nikgaukroger
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
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Thanks for the feedback. We strongly feel that design by committee is a disatrous way to do things so before we start giving out too many details about the rules we want to be sure the ideas that looked good on paper work in practice. We've worked on many similar projects in the past and unless the design team is kept tight you end up with a mish mash of ideas that don't gel.
There is not really any secrecy about the project and the development team is well known as you have mentioned on the DBMM lists, so I am confused by your comments! It has been announced and press releases issued to magazines, websites etc. There are still some details in discussion on the busines side that cannot be talked about for now and until all the pieces are in place we wont be making any further announcements on that.
We don't feel it is our job, or our right to go to places like the DBM list and publicise our rules. If gamers on those lists wish to discuss the rules then great, but we will not be posting there ourselves. I was an avid DBM players for many years. I played at least one game a week and travelled the world taking part in competitions. Due to the lack of updates I just lost interest and about 3 years ago I decided to give it up. I still played once a year in the worlds team compeition. This year I could not make it because my wife is pregnant, and suddenly there was a conspiracy theiry going around that we were not going to competitions to sabotage DBM! I don;t think it matters what we do, we're going to get accussed of that, but we are trying hard not to spoil things for anyone. If people want to continue to play DBM, that's fine, but if they want something new we'd rather they take up Art of War than give up the hobby (or even worse, start playing another peroid
)
Although the Art of War does have some familiar concepts in it, the way they are bolted together into a fast flowing and fun game is really quite revolutionary and this will become apparent when people start to play. There are some people who are using these concepts they have heard of before to attack the rules without understanding how they work, and in the post defending other rules sets that under attack for design flaws, saying people should just give them a chance. The inconsistency is amusing! These people tend to have already made up their mind and are just looking for ammunition to take more shots at us, and are not really interested in giving us a fair shot. Oh well, never mind, that's the way small hobbies like wargaming work! It is nothing like 7th edition, and this will become obvious to all who try it out, though I know with some people I am just wasting my time
As for international involvement - I don't know where the idea came that this is solely a UK based project. The beta test team has more overseas players than UK players, including Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Australia, Belgium. Credible players in Greece, USA and South Africa have also been invited to join.
All these players are signed up by NDA (non disclosure agreement), so maybe the reason you did not realise players in Australia were taking part is that at the moment they are not allowed to talk about it.
We will soon be entering stage 2 of the beta test and there is a waiting list of players from around ready to participate.
Expect After Action Reports to start coming out soon!
There is not really any secrecy about the project and the development team is well known as you have mentioned on the DBMM lists, so I am confused by your comments! It has been announced and press releases issued to magazines, websites etc. There are still some details in discussion on the busines side that cannot be talked about for now and until all the pieces are in place we wont be making any further announcements on that.
We don't feel it is our job, or our right to go to places like the DBM list and publicise our rules. If gamers on those lists wish to discuss the rules then great, but we will not be posting there ourselves. I was an avid DBM players for many years. I played at least one game a week and travelled the world taking part in competitions. Due to the lack of updates I just lost interest and about 3 years ago I decided to give it up. I still played once a year in the worlds team compeition. This year I could not make it because my wife is pregnant, and suddenly there was a conspiracy theiry going around that we were not going to competitions to sabotage DBM! I don;t think it matters what we do, we're going to get accussed of that, but we are trying hard not to spoil things for anyone. If people want to continue to play DBM, that's fine, but if they want something new we'd rather they take up Art of War than give up the hobby (or even worse, start playing another peroid
)Although the Art of War does have some familiar concepts in it, the way they are bolted together into a fast flowing and fun game is really quite revolutionary and this will become apparent when people start to play. There are some people who are using these concepts they have heard of before to attack the rules without understanding how they work, and in the post defending other rules sets that under attack for design flaws, saying people should just give them a chance. The inconsistency is amusing! These people tend to have already made up their mind and are just looking for ammunition to take more shots at us, and are not really interested in giving us a fair shot. Oh well, never mind, that's the way small hobbies like wargaming work! It is nothing like 7th edition, and this will become obvious to all who try it out, though I know with some people I am just wasting my time
As for international involvement - I don't know where the idea came that this is solely a UK based project. The beta test team has more overseas players than UK players, including Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Australia, Belgium. Credible players in Greece, USA and South Africa have also been invited to join.
All these players are signed up by NDA (non disclosure agreement), so maybe the reason you did not realise players in Australia were taking part is that at the moment they are not allowed to talk about it.
We will soon be entering stage 2 of the beta test and there is a waiting list of players from around ready to participate.
Expect After Action Reports to start coming out soon!
Thank you .
I did not want to imply that you should make publicity during DBM events, just let the testers speak about it . People - myself included - are beginning to feel frustrated . DBM is on it's decline, FOW on the rise ...people invest in FOW and wait , wanting to know what will happen for the antiquity period . I am also stopping to invest in DBM as I do not know what will happen , what rules are coming . They feel unsure of the future .
I hope to be able to test your set of rules soon, either as tester or player
Jack
I did not want to imply that you should make publicity during DBM events, just let the testers speak about it . People - myself included - are beginning to feel frustrated . DBM is on it's decline, FOW on the rise ...people invest in FOW and wait , wanting to know what will happen for the antiquity period . I am also stopping to invest in DBM as I do not know what will happen , what rules are coming . They feel unsure of the future .
I hope to be able to test your set of rules soon, either as tester or player
Jack
Development Team
As you say, I am a member of the DBM List, the DBMM list, the AncMed list, the TNE list etc etc, but nowhere has the development team been identified.
I know of one player in Oz who has been working on testing, as you say under a NDA. I presume there are others, and I know that player also acted as a playtester for HOTT and has produced his own rules so I am confident in his integrity and ability.
All I am suggesting is that a little information now creates an appetite. It doesn't need to be advertising, simply a mention that a new set is in beta testing and that an overview is available at www.xyz.co.uk
regards
Doug M.
I know of one player in Oz who has been working on testing, as you say under a NDA. I presume there are others, and I know that player also acted as a playtester for HOTT and has produced his own rules so I am confident in his integrity and ability.
All I am suggesting is that a little information now creates an appetite. It doesn't need to be advertising, simply a mention that a new set is in beta testing and that an overview is available at www.xyz.co.uk
regards
Doug M.
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
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Thanks for the feedback, but we will not officially be posting to the DBM lists as we feel it is inappropriate. We are happy for people to cut and paste any news items from here or links to news items and post them to the list.
If we started to make such posts we would be accused of attempting to kill off DBM
If we started to make such posts we would be accused of attempting to kill off DBM
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montezuma
- Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
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But isn't that your intention, from a business point of view ?iainmcneil wrote:
If we started to make such posts we would be accused of attempting to kill off DBM
After all if you were that bothered about DBM surviving you wouldn't be writing/producing Art of War. It seems obvious to me that a large number of the DBM fraternity will move to these rules when they are produced as many it would appear are looking for something new. How fickle wargamers are !!
regards
Paul
It always amazes me that people really believe that they can make a game of toy soldiers historically accurate.
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
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- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
If DBM was going strong we would not even be writing a set of rules, it's not what Slitherine do. However we do have the contacts and the resources to do this project well, without huge investment. If DBM is going to die, we'd like to be the ones to fill the vacuum, but we're never going to make a lot of money out of the project - the motivation is primarily for personal reasons!
Hello out there!
One important thing: (in my opinion)
Well, I do not think that you will became reach with this (but if so, congratulations!), but if you really want to succeed, be agile, and think about placing the ruleset and the army lists available in internet in an open and standard electronic format. Update the rules when necessary, within a release plan. Be the referee and judge in doing so, so that playability and realism are balanced, but listen to the jury: the players.
If you plan to make profit for it, sell it from the web (we, the users pay for it) or include announcements from companies that could pay, for example those making the figures we eventually buy and buy and buy and buy ...
... but anyway, keep us updated.
Do not think that selling the book electronically will make you lose customers. Those willing to have a pretty printed version, will want to buy it in the shop (ok, the electronic version is practical, but i WANT my book, you know?), those who buy going to the shop anyway will buy it and will want to buy it there... and those that do not mind where the hell the rules came from and are happy playing with xeroxed and scratched copies ... will do it anyway!
I am really hoping to know more details about the rules!! (and have them available!)
Best Regards.
One important thing: (in my opinion)
Well, I do not think that you will became reach with this (but if so, congratulations!
), but if you really want to succeed, be agile, and think about placing the ruleset and the army lists available in internet in an open and standard electronic format. Update the rules when necessary, within a release plan. Be the referee and judge in doing so, so that playability and realism are balanced, but listen to the jury: the players.If you plan to make profit for it, sell it from the web (we, the users pay for it) or include announcements from companies that could pay, for example those making the figures we eventually buy and buy and buy and buy ...
... but anyway, keep us updated.
Do not think that selling the book electronically will make you lose customers. Those willing to have a pretty printed version, will want to buy it in the shop (ok, the electronic version is practical, but i WANT my book, you know?), those who buy going to the shop anyway will buy it and will want to buy it there... and those that do not mind where the hell the rules came from and are happy playing with xeroxed and scratched copies ... will do it anyway!
I am really hoping to know more details about the rules!! (and have them available!)
Best Regards.
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honvedseg
- Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
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After Action Reports
Oak - "AAR"s are writeups of how a game played out, who won, and why. They are probably covered under the Non-Disclosure Agreement which the beta-testers signed, so you won't see any until the game is "unveiled".
