First Post

[petedalby]

Thanks for including me in the test group.

A few questions / observations before I play my first game:

p18 - visibility in terrain conflicts with p20?

P20 - how does weather occur?

P21 - do quality re-rolls apply to the outflanking march arrival test? Apply it to the lowest quality unit present - or not at all?

P22 - So 1 general plus 2 units of say 4 LI will push back an opposing flank march of 1 general plus 8 HC?

P23 - What turns or formation changes are permitted before charging?

Orb - what does it look like and how do I form it?

P27 - do Impact Foot gain their ++ if countercharging? Or only if they initiate the charge?

P31 - What happens if a General's element on its own is contacted by enemy?

P34 - what is the benefit of a Battle Group if all units must take the Complex Move Test?

P49 - No Attrition points for a lost general?

P50 - I was never a fan of this in a former set of well known Ancients rules. If the middle unit of 3 is disrupted how do you show it? I'd prefer it if you specified markers. Same applies to Impulsive - how do you show it?

P52 - Death Roll - specifies no re-rolls. But same page, Quality Re-rolls, says it applies to death rolls. Please clarify.

The sequence of play looks intriguing - I'm really looking forward to trying it out. Is it wise to specify inches though? It might be more accessible if you go metric?

Cheers

Pete

[sagji]

P21 - do quality re-rolls apply to the outflanking march arrival test? Apply it to the lowest quality unit present - or not at all?
not at all.

P22 - So 1 general plus 2 units of say 4 LI will push back an opposing flank march of 1 general plus 8 HC?
Yes - can you come up with a better mechanism?

P34 - what is the benefit of a Battle Group if all units must take the Complex Move Test?
One roll - it is easier to pass one roll than five.

[petedalby]

Thanks for that.

On outflanking you might consider total number of elements or even total value of the force? So if both were equal on units and elements, the higher value, which presumably equates to quality, would push back the opposing flank march?

To leave it as just the number of units seems a bit simplistic and possibly unrealistic.

On the Battle Group question I guess the wording needs to change?

Do you have a view on the others points I listed?

Pete

[sagji]

Thanks for that.

On outflanking you might consider total number of elements or even total value of the force? So if both were equal on units and elements, the higher value, which presumably equates to quality, would push back the opposing flank march?

To leave it as just the number of units seems a bit simplistic and possibly unrealistic.

I agree - but I haven't come up with a better system.
Elements is worse because poor quality troups tend to come in bigger numbers - a unit of 8 pikemen isn't better than 4 Knights.

Do you have a view on the others points I listed?

No.

Pete

[IainMcNeil]

Thanks for the feedback and to Sagii for helping out.

p18 - visibility in terrain conflicts with p20?
P20 - how does weather occur?
>>> The visibility and weather rules are very much work in progress. For now use the terrain table. Also let us know if you have any specific issues that stop you testing the game.

P21 - do quality re-rolls apply to the outflanking march arrival test? Apply it to the lowest quality unit present - or not at all?
>>> Sagii is correct - re-rolls do not apply to flank march arrival as this is a multi unit organsiation. However if any units are straggling they now test indvidiually and the re-roll does apply to this straggling test.

P22 - So 1 general plus 2 units of say 4 LI will push back an opposing flank march of 1 general plus 8 HC?
>>> Yes good point. We are discussing an ammendment for the next version:
1. Flank Marches with more non-skirmishers unit push the other flank march on
2. If they have eqaul numbers of non skirmisher units, the flank march with the most skirmish units wins.
3. If this is also equal both flank marches are pushed back.

P23 - What turns or formation changes are permitted before charging?
>>> You can wheel as part of a charge, but you may not change formation or turn.

Orb - what does it look like and how do I form it?
>>> This has not been thought through yet so avoid this for now.

P27 - do Impact Foot gain their ++ if countercharging? Or only if they initiate the charge?
>>> All troops that would countercharge are assumed to do and the factors have been developed with this in mind. Countercharging does not really exist and we're working on the wording to remove it to avoid confusion. Impact foot gain their ++ against any foot, but also if charging mounted. Therefore against foot they always get it whether receiving or initiating the charge, however they only get the ++ against mounted if they initiate the charge themselves, which means the mounted player must be careful not to get too close to impact foot, simulating that if you get too close there is no room to build up momentum for the mounted troops.

P31 - What happens if a General's element on its own is contacted by enemy?
>>> It has gone missing from the rules! We intend to add this in to the next version: If the general is in 6" of a friendly unit he will join it automatcially. Otherwise he is dead!

P34 - what is the benefit of a Battle Group if all units must take the Complex Move Test?
>>> Sagii is correct. It makes it easier to keep a group of units together. E.g. taking the test 5 times makes it much more likely some will pass and some will fail. The added advantage is that the whole Battlegroup can do a 2nd march move with the general.

P49 - No Attrition points for a lost general?
>>> Losing the general triggers cohesion tests so this was how we simulate the attrition effect of losing a general. In practice it can often end up cuaisng multiple attrition points when a general dies. In the last test game 2 units routed as a result.

P50 - I was never a fan of this in a former set of well known Ancients rules. If the middle unit of 3 is disrupted how do you show it? I'd prefer it if you specified markers. Same applies to Impulsive - how do you show it?
>>> It's a valid point. The way we deal with it is to slide the elements backwards rather than side to side. In principal for disrupted we keep all elements in edge to edge contact facing forwards, but with some elements displaced side to side or forwards backwards. For wavering the principal is to turn 2 elements facing backwards. For broken the emelents are no longer in edge contact.

We'd be interested to hear peoples views on using counters instead.

P52 - Death Roll - specifies no re-rolls. But same page, Quality Re-rolls, says it applies to death rolls. Please clarify.
>>> Well spotted. We need to delete the death re-roll from the quality re-roll section of the glossary. Death rolls shoudl never be re-rolled.

The sequence of play looks intriguing - I'm really looking forward to trying it out. Is it wise to specify inches though? It might be more accessible if you go metric?
>>> I think we're coming round to the metric system for everything. This will probably have happened by the next version of the rules you see.

[sagji]

Thanks for the feedback and to Sagii for helping out.
P23 - What turns or formation changes are permitted before charging?
>>> You can wheel as part of a charge, but you may not change formation or turn.

Last line of p23 "* any turn of formation change requires a CMT and ..."
Either this line is incorrect or I guess it is any move that allows an expansion and movement - i.e. expand 2 elements and move available to drilled and skirmishers.

P31 - What happens if a General's element on its own is contacted by enemy?
>>> It has gone missing from the rules! We intend to add this in to the next version: If the general is in 6" of a friendly unit he will join it automatcially. Otherwise he is dead!

What if a general is blocking the move of an enemy unit, or general?
I think it should be a variable flee or join move based on the general's move not 6" - a general in a litter can't move as fast as a general on a light horse.

P34 - what is the benefit of a Battle Group if all units must take the Complex Move Test?
>>> Sagii is correct. It makes it easier to keep a group of units together. E.g. taking the test 5 times makes it much more likely some will pass and some will fail. The added advantage is that the whole Battlegroup can do a 2nd march move with the general.

I think the last point needs to be specifically mentioned in the rules.

[IainMcNeil]

Yes P23 is actually a change to the rules that will be in the next version. The other issues we will clarify as soon as possible in the rules. Thanks again.