swiss 1422

[benos]

OK having agreed to paint up a swiss and an italian army for a demo game, i'm tempted to try a competition event later in the year?
thus i will probably take the swiss,now this will be my first FOG Comp (have been to a couple of DBM comps and a whole collection of WAB ones so i know the competition scene well-ish though a bit out of the loop)
will the following be simple enough to get a passable game out of (not too worried about winning, just getting some good games in where i have a chance, while having an easy army to use)

4 x TC
3 x 8 hf sup ptd dld pikemen
5 x 8 hf sup ptd dld heavy weapon
3 x 4 lf ave, unp dld crossbow

basic premise is to get to move first as often as possible, and use the superiors agressively, weighting one flank (dependant on terrain) against foot armies use the crossbows to cover one flank, against mounted use a pike block to cover the flank.
pros: simple to use, lots of bigish superior blocks, has some useful stuff against both foot and mounted
cons: not very mobile, few skirmishers, prone to gettign bad matchups (shooty cavalry, Romans?, bad terrain based forces)

any opinions
Ben

[gozerius]

I wouldn't call superior HF HW crappy terrain troops. They keep their POA against everything but skirmishers and SSW even when severely disordered and superior helps with the CTs. Your biggest worry is somebody with lots of shooty troops, but you can screen with the LF crossbows. Maybe change 1 BG of LF to LH. That will allow you to slow the enemy down just a bit more on the opening move. They run away faster too.

[benos]

tried this list this evening. But with 4 light horse instead of one of the light foot.
Nik obliterated it, admittedly with pretty much all the luck going his way.
Lessons learnt: skirmishers should deploy first and pike last in this list.
find a way to watch the flanks, one can hold for a while 2 will struggle
be aggressive. This list doesn't really need an IC and moving first is good here.
roll better dice (even if the opponent provides them!)
still an enjoyable game and even with better dice the swiss would still have lost. Needs one secure flank.

[batesmotel]

I've always felt that the minimum pike worth taking is 4x8 or 3x 12. Pike are too expensive to just use as flank guards if you use them 4 deep and 3x8 doesn't feel like quite enough mass to be decisive.

As a further thought, would the HW work better as something smaller than 8's to give you more BGs? (Not sure what range of sizes are allowed on the list.) Some 4's in the mix would be nice if allowed, otherwise maybe some or all the HW as 6's?

Chris

[nikgaukroger]

tried this list this evening. But with 4 light horse instead of one of the light foot.
Nik obliterated it, admittedly with pretty much all the luck going his way.
Lessons learnt: skirmishers should deploy first and pike last in this list.
find a way to watch the flanks, one can hold for a while 2 will struggle
be aggressive. This list doesn't really need an IC and moving first is good here.
roll better dice (even if the opponent provides them!)
still an enjoyable game and even with better dice the swiss would still have lost. Needs one secure flank.

Swiss Vs WotR is not a great match up for the Swiss - the dice just added insult really

[Moro]

In your opinion, it is better the swiss army before 1425 /i.e. with many HW and some pike), or the other (with many pikes)?

(probably it was yet asked, but...)

[benos]

i actually thiink the swiss are a bit one dimensional to be a really good army. That said they are a pretty good beginners army. Simple to use
and surprisingly resiliant. (Nik still had to fight through 5 superior bgs in 8's)
I might try a later vesion in a swarm type at some point ( 6 4's of halberds, the light horse, 5 4's of light foot and about 5 pike bgs) but it still
feels similar.don't get me wrong my tactics could have been much better, and i should have lost but the swiss are very much a one trick pony
the on.ly reason they can cope is it is a good one trick.
Ben

[Cynical]

The advantage of the later Swiss with the pike is that the HW units can be smaller and act as more efficient rear support. Though 4's of HW don't like armoured lancers much

[benos]

actually the armourer lancers are no better than protected vs the halberdiers

[recharge]

Must be psychic

I was about to start this discussion myself


Personally, I think the HW majority would be better, but I haven't fielded either version

John

[speedy]

Admittedly it was in 25mm where heavy infantry enemies are probably the norm, but I've had a bit of success with an early Swiss army with no pikes, just halberiers, a few LF filler BGs, and cunning use of impassable and/or difficult terrain. The halberdiers are very resilient, especially if the critical combats are strengthened by a TC fighting and an IC with the BG for at least the Impact phase to give the +2 on CTs if necessary ....

Army (at 650 points):-

IC, 2 x TC
5 x 8 Halberdiers
5 x 4 LF Xbowmen