severe Russian winter in the middle of May???

[henri511]

I am playing the GS mod as the Germans. When the severe Winter hit, it lasted until May 18, but by that time, I was unable to launch any offensive since my forces were depleted. This is highly unrealistic, since the average May temperature in Moscow is 19 C, the average April temperature is 10 C and the average March temperature is around freezing. There is no way that the 1942 severe weather could last until the middle of May. What happened to the Winter turns? Because of the turn duration, the Germans are unable to launch any counter-attack before the middle of June at least, which again is unrealistic, since the Germans launched the Kharkov counter-attack in April 1942.

Needless to say this allowed the Russians to push almost all the way to Kharkov in the center and almot to the Ploesti oil fields in the South, although my battered forces in the North managed to hold a line around Riga (which was occupied by the Soviets). The clobbered Rumanians have nothing serious to counter the Soviets from taking the oil fields, and the Soviet salient in the center seems unstoppable.

Another problem showed up at the same time when despite my 6 submarines sinking supplies in the Atlantic, the British managed to launch a major invasion of France in March 1942. Despite having no ports in France, some Allied units were still in supply 3 moves after the invasion, whereas when I went after Norway, my units were out of supply on the move after the invasion. So apparently the AI cheats or this is a bug. Again needless to say, I will be unable to stop them since they seem to have about 20 fleets or more in the channel.

Looks like the war is lost...

Henri

[gerones]

I am playing the GS mod as the Germans. When the severe Winter hit, it lasted until May 18, but by that time, I was unable to launch any offensive since my forces were depleted. This is highly unrealistic, since the average May temperature in Moscow is 19 C, the average April temperature is 10 C and the average March temperature is around freezing. There is no way that the 1942 severe weather could last until the middle of May. What happened to the Winter turns? Because of the turn duration, the Germans are unable to launch any counter-attack before the middle of June at least, which again is unrealistic, since the Germans launched the Kharkov counter-attack in April 1942.

You can modify severe winter duration and conditions in general.txt file. I played a game with the severe winter beginning in october: I modified the general.txt file about severe winter chance in october and no more severe winter in october...

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here is the weather data for Moscow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Moscow

The average temperature in May is 12.8C, but as low as -7.5C has been measured.
For April the average is 6.3C and the minimum record is -21.0C.

Severe winter in Russia only has a severe effect on the turn it starts. It's THEN the Axis units get an efficiency drop. Then it lasts for 6 turns.

The severe winter has a 10% chance of starting in October 33% chance in November, 66% chance in December and 100% chance in January if it didn't start earlier.

In 1942 you will see that if the severe winter starts as late as possible it starts in 08.01.1942 and will last till 18.04.1942. So no May severe winter in 1942.
In 1943 the latest severe winter start time is 03.01.1943 with an end of 13.04.1943.
In 1944 the data are latest start 18.01.1944 and latest end 27.04.1944
In 1945 the data are 12.01.1945 and 22.05.1945
In 1941 the similar data are 13.01.1941 and 23.04.1941

So I can't see how you can get severe winter in May. You can have it in April, though if it starts late. But severe winter is almost the same as mud or winter with +1 armor movement penalty in severe winter as the main difference. That means you can move 2 hexes in clear terrain instead of 3 hexes.

If you look at the different Axis offensives each year you will notice that the Germans didn't launch any offensives in April or May. Why?

1941. Barbarossa 22.06.1941
1942. Case Blue 28.06.1942
1943. Citadel 05.07.1943

So I can't really see that the GS weather is that ahistorical

[IainMcNeil]

Henri I think you need to play the game a bit more. You've been unlucky and I think you minsunderstood what is happening in some situations.

We could make the weather follow historical patterns but then it woudl be dulland there would be no replay value.

Once you have played some more I'm sure you'll appreciate the way it works!

[henri511]

So I can't see how you can get severe winter in May.

Thanks for the reply. If you get the latest start of severe Winter as I probably did, given the turn duration, it is May 18 until I got a move without the effects. The effects do not stop until it is my turn to move, one move later than when the effects stop.

Sorry, but there WERE 1942 operations in May. "German 6th Army under General Friedrich Paulus had also been preparing for an offensive south of Kharkov code named Operation Friderikus; the order for the offensive was given on 30 Apr 1942, calling for the operation to begin around 18 May... The Russians struck first on May 12. "

Anyway, it appears that I was unlucky in Winter starting so late, and the disaster was partly due to my poor understanding of how severe Winter works and leaving the Central front almost undefended thinking that I would regain the offensive in March or early April. It was no help that after finishing Poland, Denmark and France way ahead of schedule I wasted almost a year taking Denmark because of piecemeal invasions of Norway that immediately ran out of supplies, until I decided a serious invasion at Bergen and walking to Oslo to open a supply linie to the 4 units srtranded there. Actually it seems to me that an invasion at Oslo is impossible to accomplish successfully, since only 2 landing hexes are available, and no shore bombardment is possible.

Oh well, practice makes perfect...

Henri

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I didn't say there weren't any offensives in the winter, but the Germans waited for the winter to end for the MAJOR offensives they launched. I don't think we can call the Battle of the Bulge a major offensive. It was a desperate act in the final year of the war and it also failed. But Bulge proved that offensive warfare was possible during the winter and you can do the same in GS.

I can't understand how you struggle with taking Denmark and Norway. I usually take out Denmark on turn 2. I use a BB, DD to bombard and a tac bomber and fighter to soften up the target. Then I use sea invasion to land south of Copenhagen to attack. Now the Danish unit should be really depleted. I finish off with a unit moving from the border to the hex west of Copenhagen. In order to do this you need to rail 2 units to
the area on turn 1. Usually Denmark falls on turn 2 and sometimes I need to mop up the remains on turn 3.

Norway is also very simple to take out and I usually do it in 2 turns. I send a corps or two to the Oslo area supported by the Kriegsmarine. Then I let 2 tac bombers be located in Denmark max 8 hexes from Oslo. On turn 1 I land southeast and southwest of Oslo and bombard Oslo with the 2 tac bombers. The BB is placed adjacent to both landing hexes to provide supply. The DD will be adjacent to the BB to prevent counter attacks. If I fear the Royal Navy intervention I place a sub screen in the Skagerrak.

On turn 2 I continue the bombing of Oslo with tac bombers and move the land units to Oslo for the attack. Quite often Oslo falls on the second turn of the invasion and Norway surrenders. If not you repeat on the third turn.

So airpower is the key to success.

[henri511]

Norway is also very simple to take out and I usually do it in 2 turns. I send a corps or two to the Oslo area supported by the Kriegsmarine. Then I let 2 tac bombers be located in Denmark max 8 hexes from Oslo. On turn 1 I land southeast and southwest of Oslo and bombard Oslo with the 2 tac bombers. The BB is placed adjacent to both landing hexes to provide supply. The DD will be adjacent to the BB to prevent counter attacks. If I fear the Royal Navy intervention I place a sub screen in the Skagerrak.

Hold on - did I miss something? Did you say that ships can give supplies to invading units?

I did the same at Oslo as you did with the 2 aircraft and the 2 invaders, but on the move after invasion they were out of supplies and left to dry on the clothesline. I don't remember whether or not my ships were adjacent - I do remember that later the ships were bombarding Bergen to little effect along with another out-of-supply unit there, until I sent in a major invasion that took Bergen (there are at least 3 adjacent hexes for invaders to attack from with the help of ship and air bombardment), then walked a unit to open a supply line to Oslo. The result was a delay in the Balkans (I didn't have time for Greece) and a late August start for Barbarossa.

Because of the deep Russian penetrations East of Krakow (a salient 3 and 4 units wide that probably cannot be stopped) and the threat to the Rumanian oil fields protected by a paper-thin and depleted defense there, due to not having a move without severe Winter effects until May 18, I have given up on this game and have started another, despite success in Africa (I had taken Cairo, Alexandria Suez and Jerusalem - but the oil fields are still at least a year away...).

This time I have left Norway alone, conquered France by mid-August (later than the previous game but I began later to build up my forces), and am gearing up to send a couple of German units to Africa and am about to declare war on Yugoslavia, where Italians are already on the border and German troops are being railed there. This time I will also go after Greece using the two-move Athens invasion scheme I saw somewhere, and if all goes well, go for an early Barbarossa.

If that doesn't work, maybe I will try again on "easy"...

Henri

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Yes. Surface ships can provide supply level 1 to beachheads. Look here for my explanation of this to another player:
viewtopic.php?t=14193

[henri511]

Yes. Surface ships can provide supply level 1 to beachheads. Look here for my explanation of this to another player:
viewtopic.php?t=14193

Great! No wonder I had trouble with invasions....

Thanks for all you quick replies Stauffenberg. You are very helpful.

BTW, what motivated you to choose this particular nickname? (A deep need to be shot?...-just kidding).

henri

[Clark]

Hold on - did I miss something? Did you say that ships can give supplies to invading units?

This is why you saw Allied units moving deeper into France without holding a port.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

BTW, what motivated you to choose this particular nickname? (A deep need to be shot?...-just kidding).
henri

I've had my nick for many years, a long time before the movie Valkyrie.

The reason is that I like to play both wargames and role-playing games. My favourite character in RPG's is the paladin, a holy knight dedicated to fighting evil. Paladins are supposed to be very brave and wouldn't hesitate to go to Hell or the Abyss to pursue evil if it's necessary.

When reading about WW2 history (TV-series, books etc.) I came across Operation Walküre in July 1944 where Klaus Schenk von Stauffenberg lead the assasination attempt upon Hitler. When learning about their bravery I thought of Stauffenberg as the holy paladin going to the Abyss (Hitler's Wolf's Lair) to kill Orcus, the Demon Lord of Undead (Hitler) fighting a lot of undead and demons (SS troops) while getting there. I had played a D&D high level module where the PC's had to go use gate to get to the Abyss and steal the Wand of Orcus in order to kill Tiamat, a very dangerous and evil dragon.

Such an act would be considered to be very foolish, but extremely brave. And if it succeeded it would make the world a much better place. So Stauffenberg was in my eyes a real paladin who sacrificed his life trying to kill the greatest evil ever in the world. Stauffenberg nearly succeeded and it was only bad luck that prevented him from killing Hitler and taking over Germany. Had he had time to activate both bombs then Hitler would have had no chance. Unfortunately the war continued for nearly 10 more months.

Stauffenberg is also a symbol that not all Germans were evil Nazis. Many Germans after the war were accused of why they didn't stand up to Hitler and the Nazis. Stauffenberg is proof that some did. So he symbolises the good German.