As Paolo has beaten me to it here are my thoughts.
Essentialy I just typed comments into a second document as I read through for the first time
For other playtesters it would be nice to see your inital comments before you read other peoples thoughts. That way we should get a wider variety of comment.
{spoiler - don't read past this if you haven't posted your thoughts yet}
Initial comments:
Introduction reads nicely and makes sense
Army lists in main set
Generals - IC 0-1, FC 2-4, TC 0-2 (I am sure it's explained somewhere but as the first line of the lists which you are pointed at to get a feel for what is possible it could do with a touch of explanation somewhere close to the list). Found it now, it's on Page 11 so not a big issue.
Carthaginian Celtiberians, elements per unit 6-8, number required 4-12. Surely it should be either 6-12 required or even 6-16 to allow two large units.
Camps P15, the 25mm boys will have to change their camps as things stand because each 25mm Bg element is 60mm by 80mm IIRC.
Dismounting P15, why do only troops that dismounted historically get to do it? There should be some troops who will not dismount but if an army never encountered a situation where dismounting made sense who is to say if their mounted would or would not dissmount. There are some troops who would simply not fight on foot even when asked and they should IMO be not allowed to dismount rather than only those who actually did dismount being allowed to do so.
Invading P16 - each player rolls 1d6, surely as you have earlier stated that all dice are six sided numbered 1-6 this should simply be each player rolls a dice?
Terrain P16 - it is impossible to make a piece of terrain that is 4" across in all directions. I realise it is difficult to word this restriction and I know what you mean but it would be nice if a better form of words could be arrived at.
P17 I would change the table to be: odd numbers defenders half, even numbers attackers half, 1-2 long edge, 3-4 short edge 5-6 over 8" from the edge. I think that would be easier to remember.
P18 In the text on P17 Woods are listed as difficult. In the table they are rough?? Infact there are several discrepancies here. Vineyards, fields Forest etc.
P26 ZOI refers to a CM not a CMT, consitency
P27 Evade, I think I understand what is meant but the wording could mean that the evading unit gets to move to the distance of it's initial rear element from the enemy before starting to move.
P30, the contacted enemy count 1 element fighting for each charging element in contact even if they have less elements in contact?? So if I have a 6 element unit in 2 ranks charged in such a way that four elements contact it I fight back with 4 elements???
POA's
Defensive Sp get a POA even if only in one rank?
Pike fourth rank, does it only count if charging?
If you have offensive spearmen / light spear fighting spearmen does the light spear give a POA to break the tie?
P36 Moves
Undrilled complex, outside 6" of what? presumably the enemy...
Double wheel?? A wheel with each end of a formation?
P37 Marching
Can a march starting outside 8" move to closer than 8"?
P50 scoring, What counts as a casualty? Destroyed elements and all elements from broken units?
P52 death roll, if there were more than 6 hits roll again for the remainder??? This implies you roll for the first 6 and fail (or I suppose you could get a 7 and pass) then roll again for any excess. Not quite sure I understand this.
A sequence of play would be nice, I haven't found one and while the rules are presented in order it seems a bit confusing as you read about close combat before you read about moving.
The reference sheets are nice but the ++, + , - & -- could do with being larger and thus clearer.
Having read through and looked at a few things going back it seems that light spear for foot is free. If this is the case then are we not just going to end up with everyone wanting the variant that has light spear as well as the other main weapon.
I have done some number crunching on the combat outcomes and the various grades and POA values produce quite a nice range of results. There is still the chance of a very unlucky combat ( for example if two units roll six dice there is a 2% or so chance that one will get 5 hits to the others 2, ho catastrophic this would be will need to wait for a play test).
Army lists:
What has happened to the Hd in the Classical Indian list? I have 20 odd of them and they are feeling left out.
Not including points is IMO a wise choice but perhaps an area where someone can pencil in points for the armies they use regularly might make sense. To be honest I don't think it will take that long to get to the point where for most things you know the point values anyway.
My initial thoughts
Moderators: philqw78, terrys, hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Moderators, Field of Glory Design
Ok,
only read Hammys introduction. My very first idea was: Oha! DBM is going back to WRG 6th edition.
In detail: what I like is:
- the idea of showing examples before explaining the details. And I like the stile (the "ouches" and "Ewww").
- the language. Very clear and precise.
- the pressing forward to contact rule. Speeds up infantry.
what I don??t like is:
- playing in units. Makes sense as long as you think about organized people like Romans or Macedonians. To think about units with warbands (especially with tribes wandering around) feels strange.
- millimeter bases and measuring in inches ( Couldn??t find your distances are inches - just guessed). Made no sense in DBM, makes no sense here. Ends in the same situations we are facing in DBM: we play millimeters on the continent, inches against english (sorry JD - british, of course...) in ENGLAND, millimeters against english speaking players on the continent. Unless we are doing somehow different. Decide and stick to it, please.
- different POA??s for impact and melee. Confusing.
- some abbrevaitions (hope it??s the correct english word...) on page 12: Foot are HF (Heavy), MF (Medium) and LF (Light) - except of when mounted. Then they are MHI, MMI and MLI.
VEM on page 29 - what is it?
Orb formation / page 35?
- no point values in the army lists. I can hardly make a correct order of battle WITH point values in the lists. Will confuse newcomers and experienced players.
Thorsten
only read Hammys introduction. My very first idea was: Oha! DBM is going back to WRG 6th edition.
In detail: what I like is:
- the idea of showing examples before explaining the details. And I like the stile (the "ouches" and "Ewww").
- the language. Very clear and precise.
- the pressing forward to contact rule. Speeds up infantry.
what I don??t like is:
- playing in units. Makes sense as long as you think about organized people like Romans or Macedonians. To think about units with warbands (especially with tribes wandering around) feels strange.
- millimeter bases and measuring in inches ( Couldn??t find your distances are inches - just guessed). Made no sense in DBM, makes no sense here. Ends in the same situations we are facing in DBM: we play millimeters on the continent, inches against english (sorry JD - british, of course...) in ENGLAND, millimeters against english speaking players on the continent. Unless we are doing somehow different. Decide and stick to it, please.
- different POA??s for impact and melee. Confusing.
- some abbrevaitions (hope it??s the correct english word...) on page 12: Foot are HF (Heavy), MF (Medium) and LF (Light) - except of when mounted. Then they are MHI, MMI and MLI.
VEM on page 29 - what is it?
Orb formation / page 35?
- no point values in the army lists. I can hardly make a correct order of battle WITH point values in the lists. Will confuse newcomers and experienced players.
Thorsten
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13558
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
Thanks for the great feedback Hammy
Carthaginian Celtiberians, elements per unit 6-8, number required 4-12. Surely it should be either 6-12 required or even 6-16 to allow two large units.
>>> Ok, looks like an error in the list. Will report to Richard.
Camps P15, the 25mm boys will have to change their camps as things stand because each 25mm Bg element is 60mm by 80mm IIRC.
>>> Ok will need to change that.
Dismounting P15, why do only troops that dismounted historically get to do it? There should be some troops who will not dismount but if an army never encountered a situation where dismounting made sense who is to say if their mounted would or would not dissmount. There are some troops who would simply not fight on foot even when asked and they should IMO be not allowed to dismount rather than only those who actually did dismount being allowed to do so.
>>> Good point - need to resolve.
P17 I would change the table to be: odd numbers defenders half, even numbers attackers half, 1-2 long edge, 3-4 short edge 5-6 over 8" from the edge. I think that would be easier to remember.
>>> Ok good idea. Will discuss.
P18 In the text on P17 Woods are listed as difficult. In the table they are rough?? Infact there are several discrepancies here. Vineyards, fields Forest etc.
>>> Yes will fix.
P27 Evade, I think I understand what is meant but the wording could mean that the evading unit gets to move to the distance of it's initial rear element from the enemy before starting to move.
>>> Not sure what the question is?
P30, the contacted enemy count 1 element fighting for each charging element in contact even if they have less elements in contact?? So if I have a 6 element unit in 2 ranks charged in such a way that four elements contact it I fight back with 4 elements???
>>> Yes, if 4 elements contact 6 you will only fight with 4 dice each. This is by design so that we can model the difference between troops that were good at impact and those that were good in prolonged melees. At the melee stage numbers will start to count.
Defensive Sp get a POA even if only in one rank?
>>> Yes, but at melee they will get overrun. Feel free to try it
Pike fourth rank, does it only count if charging?
>>> Counts unless pikes are disrupted or wavering.
If you have offensive spearmen / light spear fighting spearmen does the light spear give a POA to break the tie?
>>> You can only use one weapon at a time, so you would either choose to use your spear or light spear but not both.
P36 Moves
Undrilled complex, outside 6" of what? presumably the enemy...
>>> Yes
Double wheel?? A wheel with each end of a formation?
>>> Yes, it means you wheel right then wheel left.
P37 Marching
Can a march starting outside 8" move to closer than 8"?
>>> No, a march must start and end outside of 8"
P50 scoring, What counts as a casualty? Destroyed elements and all elements from broken units?
>>> Good point - needs clarifying. It should say attrition point rather than casualty.
P52 death roll, if there were more than 6 hits roll again for the remainder??? This implies you roll for the first 6 and fail (or I suppose you could get a 7 and pass) then roll again for any excess. Not quite sure I understand this.
>>> Lets look at an example. Imagine you had suffered 7 hits you split it in 6 hits and 1. If you had lost the combat there is no point in rolling for the first 6 as you cannot beat it and a 2 would be required to save the 2nd base. If these hits were from shooting you would receive a +2 on the death roll meaning that the first roll would require a 6 to avoid an element losss and there is no reason to roll the 2nd die because you woudl need to roll a -1 to die, and not even you can do that Hammy!
A sequence of play would be nice, I haven't found one and while the rules are presented in order it seems a bit confusing as you read about close combat before you read about moving.
>>> It's on the quick referrence sheet and the rules are structured in the order you play the game, but we definitely need to make it clearer!
The reference sheets are nice but the ++, + , - & -- could do with being larger and thus clearer.
>>> Ok
Having read through and looked at a few things going back it seems that light spear for foot is free. If this is the case then are we not just going to end up with everyone wanting the variant that has light spear as well as the other main weapon.
>>> It's not actually that useful because you must choose to use it instead of other weapons. Can always be changed if balancing says its its too good. The points system is very much work in progress right now.
I have done some number crunching on the combat outcomes and the various grades and POA values produce quite a nice range of results. There is still the chance of a very unlucky combat ( for example if two units roll six dice there is a 2% or so chance that one will get 5 hits to the others 2, ho catastrophic this would be will need to wait for a play test).
>>> We have run this through various number crunchers to check it produces the results desired. However, we've found that play testing throws up interesting insights that the number crunchers cannot and we look forwards to your feedback.
What has happened to the Hd in the Classical Indian list? I have 20 odd of them and they are feeling left out.
>>> Can you post any list queries to the List checker forum. Hammy if you see any queries like this can copy them over as the moderator.
Not including points is IMO a wise choice but perhaps an area where someone can pencil in points for the armies they use regularly might make sense. To be honest I don't think it will take that long to get to the point where for most things you know the point values anyway.
>>> We're still discussing how best to handle this as there are pros and cons to including & leaving them out.
Now on to Thorstens feedback. Thanks very much Thorsten!
- playing in units. Makes sense as long as you think about organized people like Romans or Macedonians. To think about units with warbands (especially with tribes wandering around) feels strange.
>>> We feel it gives a accurate reporesentation of the behaviour of warbands and tribes, but give it a try and let us know what you think after you've played a few games.
- millimeter bases and measuring in inches ( Couldn??t find your distances are inches - just guessed). Made no sense in DBM, makes no sense here. Ends in the same situations we are facing in DBM: we play millimeters on the continent, inches against english (sorry JD - british, of course...) in ENGLAND, millimeters against english speaking players on the continent. Unless we are doing somehow different. Decide and stick to it, please.
>>> It's still in discussion but thanks for the info We'll try and keep as many people happy as possible!
- different POA??s for impact and melee. Confusing.
>>> This is a fundamental part of the design as it allows us to model impact troops such as warbands and knights accurately without making them over powered in prolonged fights. Once again give this a try and let know how it feels.
- some abbrevaitions (hope it??s the correct english word...) on page 12: Foot are HF (Heavy), MF (Medium) and LF (Light) - except of when mounted. Then they are MHI, MMI and MLI.
>>> Thanks - we have yet to do a consistency check!
VEM on page 29 - what is it?
>>> It means Variable Evade Move.
Orb formation / page 35?
>>> We're not sure yet either TBD!
- no point values in the army lists. I can hardly make a correct order of battle WITH point values in the lists. Will confuse newcomers and experienced players.
>>> Yes, good point, under discussion.
Carthaginian Celtiberians, elements per unit 6-8, number required 4-12. Surely it should be either 6-12 required or even 6-16 to allow two large units.
>>> Ok, looks like an error in the list. Will report to Richard.
Camps P15, the 25mm boys will have to change their camps as things stand because each 25mm Bg element is 60mm by 80mm IIRC.
>>> Ok will need to change that.
Dismounting P15, why do only troops that dismounted historically get to do it? There should be some troops who will not dismount but if an army never encountered a situation where dismounting made sense who is to say if their mounted would or would not dissmount. There are some troops who would simply not fight on foot even when asked and they should IMO be not allowed to dismount rather than only those who actually did dismount being allowed to do so.
>>> Good point - need to resolve.
P17 I would change the table to be: odd numbers defenders half, even numbers attackers half, 1-2 long edge, 3-4 short edge 5-6 over 8" from the edge. I think that would be easier to remember.
>>> Ok good idea. Will discuss.
P18 In the text on P17 Woods are listed as difficult. In the table they are rough?? Infact there are several discrepancies here. Vineyards, fields Forest etc.
>>> Yes will fix.
P27 Evade, I think I understand what is meant but the wording could mean that the evading unit gets to move to the distance of it's initial rear element from the enemy before starting to move.
>>> Not sure what the question is?
P30, the contacted enemy count 1 element fighting for each charging element in contact even if they have less elements in contact?? So if I have a 6 element unit in 2 ranks charged in such a way that four elements contact it I fight back with 4 elements???
>>> Yes, if 4 elements contact 6 you will only fight with 4 dice each. This is by design so that we can model the difference between troops that were good at impact and those that were good in prolonged melees. At the melee stage numbers will start to count.
Defensive Sp get a POA even if only in one rank?
>>> Yes, but at melee they will get overrun. Feel free to try it
Pike fourth rank, does it only count if charging?
>>> Counts unless pikes are disrupted or wavering.
If you have offensive spearmen / light spear fighting spearmen does the light spear give a POA to break the tie?
>>> You can only use one weapon at a time, so you would either choose to use your spear or light spear but not both.
P36 Moves
Undrilled complex, outside 6" of what? presumably the enemy...
>>> Yes
Double wheel?? A wheel with each end of a formation?
>>> Yes, it means you wheel right then wheel left.
P37 Marching
Can a march starting outside 8" move to closer than 8"?
>>> No, a march must start and end outside of 8"
P50 scoring, What counts as a casualty? Destroyed elements and all elements from broken units?
>>> Good point - needs clarifying. It should say attrition point rather than casualty.
P52 death roll, if there were more than 6 hits roll again for the remainder??? This implies you roll for the first 6 and fail (or I suppose you could get a 7 and pass) then roll again for any excess. Not quite sure I understand this.
>>> Lets look at an example. Imagine you had suffered 7 hits you split it in 6 hits and 1. If you had lost the combat there is no point in rolling for the first 6 as you cannot beat it and a 2 would be required to save the 2nd base. If these hits were from shooting you would receive a +2 on the death roll meaning that the first roll would require a 6 to avoid an element losss and there is no reason to roll the 2nd die because you woudl need to roll a -1 to die, and not even you can do that Hammy!
A sequence of play would be nice, I haven't found one and while the rules are presented in order it seems a bit confusing as you read about close combat before you read about moving.
>>> It's on the quick referrence sheet and the rules are structured in the order you play the game, but we definitely need to make it clearer!
The reference sheets are nice but the ++, + , - & -- could do with being larger and thus clearer.
>>> Ok
Having read through and looked at a few things going back it seems that light spear for foot is free. If this is the case then are we not just going to end up with everyone wanting the variant that has light spear as well as the other main weapon.
>>> It's not actually that useful because you must choose to use it instead of other weapons. Can always be changed if balancing says its its too good. The points system is very much work in progress right now.
I have done some number crunching on the combat outcomes and the various grades and POA values produce quite a nice range of results. There is still the chance of a very unlucky combat ( for example if two units roll six dice there is a 2% or so chance that one will get 5 hits to the others 2, ho catastrophic this would be will need to wait for a play test).
>>> We have run this through various number crunchers to check it produces the results desired. However, we've found that play testing throws up interesting insights that the number crunchers cannot and we look forwards to your feedback.
What has happened to the Hd in the Classical Indian list? I have 20 odd of them and they are feeling left out.
>>> Can you post any list queries to the List checker forum. Hammy if you see any queries like this can copy them over as the moderator.
Not including points is IMO a wise choice but perhaps an area where someone can pencil in points for the armies they use regularly might make sense. To be honest I don't think it will take that long to get to the point where for most things you know the point values anyway.
>>> We're still discussing how best to handle this as there are pros and cons to including & leaving them out.
Now on to Thorstens feedback. Thanks very much Thorsten!
- playing in units. Makes sense as long as you think about organized people like Romans or Macedonians. To think about units with warbands (especially with tribes wandering around) feels strange.
>>> We feel it gives a accurate reporesentation of the behaviour of warbands and tribes, but give it a try and let us know what you think after you've played a few games.
- millimeter bases and measuring in inches ( Couldn??t find your distances are inches - just guessed). Made no sense in DBM, makes no sense here. Ends in the same situations we are facing in DBM: we play millimeters on the continent, inches against english (sorry JD - british, of course...) in ENGLAND, millimeters against english speaking players on the continent. Unless we are doing somehow different. Decide and stick to it, please.
>>> It's still in discussion but thanks for the info
We'll try and keep as many people happy as possible!- different POA??s for impact and melee. Confusing.
>>> This is a fundamental part of the design as it allows us to model impact troops such as warbands and knights accurately without making them over powered in prolonged fights. Once again give this a try and let know how it feels.
- some abbrevaitions (hope it??s the correct english word...) on page 12: Foot are HF (Heavy), MF (Medium) and LF (Light) - except of when mounted. Then they are MHI, MMI and MLI.
>>> Thanks - we have yet to do a consistency check!
VEM on page 29 - what is it?
>>> It means Variable Evade Move.
Orb formation / page 35?
>>> We're not sure yet either
TBD!- no point values in the army lists. I can hardly make a correct order of battle WITH point values in the lists. Will confuse newcomers and experienced players.
>>> Yes, good point, under discussion.