Why can't chargers interpenetrate?

[Chris1066]

First time user of FOG. As might be expected, it's a learning process. Playing Frisian versus Frisian as I figured an infantry slog would be a good introduction. Anyway.
Have encountered this situation and would appreciate some feedback or expert opinion. Thanks in advance.

Archers of one side have been in close combat with javelins from the other side. Javelins are getting thrashed but are holding on. Other warriors and household troops are moving up in support.

Page 47 of rule book tells me that "No interpenetrations are permitted when charging." So, the impact swordsmen cannot wade through the friendly lights to get a hold of the enemy lights, or at least drive them away?

Confusingly, 4v of the FAQ warns me of getting skirmishers engaged with skirmishers if enemy non-skirmishers are close.

It seems as if one is stating one thing while the other states something else.

Can I move the impact guys up into contact? Who would drop in cohesion as a result, if anyone? Why would enemy lights stick around once they see the big bullies coming on?!

Again, thanks in advance.

Chris

[expendablecinc]

Lights can move through heavies but heavies have to wait until the way is clear is you want to order them to charge.

You cant order them to charge through but they might do it on thier own. The heavies might charge through if they are charging specialists (ie shock troops) however charging is not as ordered or polite as interpenetrating.

I think of interpenetration as:
"Hi there, excuse me, coming through, pardon me just squ..eeezing through to get to the other side. Thanks mate".

Wheres as charging is:
"Move or die! I am coming through"

IE option 2 does not happen due to the orders of generals and if it does happen will result in those being caught in the middle of a charge to end up somewhat dishevelled (ie disrupted).

anthony

[philqw78]

Archers of one side have been in close combat with javelins from the other side. Javelins are getting thrashed but are holding on. Other warriors and household troops are moving up in support.

Page 47 of rule book tells me that "No interpenetrations are permitted when charging." So, the impact swordsmen cannot wade through the friendly lights to get a hold of the enemy lights, or at least drive them away?

No

Confusingly, 4v of the FAQ warns me of getting skirmishers engaged with skirmishers if enemy non-skirmishers are close.

The rules have been designed to make players use lights more historically. If they get invloved in a combat with enemy lights it gets in the way and, unless one side has an overlap that can be charged by non-lights, lasts far too long. The idea with lights is to use them to disrupt enemy formations, through shooting or the enemy charging out of formation. Once their job is done they should get out of the way. This is why they are worth the same attrition points as a BG of elite lancers.

Can I move the impact guys up into contact? Who would drop in cohesion as a result, if anyone? Why would enemy lights stick around once they see the big bullies coming on?!

You cannot replace troops in combat, so noone would lose cohesion. The lights stick around because if they ran they would be caught in the rear by the lights they are fighting. Once the lights are in combat they cannot retire form that combat (unless mtd v steady foot). So do not get your lights into a melee with battle troops close by as if the battle troops can move into overlap or find a base they can charge the lights have no escape and will be quickly dispatched.

A lot of the restrictions on light troops may seem over the top. However, try playing the game without these and it is amazing how much more difficult, strange and ridiculous the game becomes as LF stand in the open against pike so that next turn a BG of lancers can catch them in the flank whilst the LF then break off undamaged, or the LF melee is burst into by a BG of knights who push their own LF behind themselves but only VMD, trying to follow the now evading enemy LF, 1 MU so do not even pass through their own LF in the first place.

Use skirmishers historically and they work well. They are only meant to fight each other, HTH, as a last resort.

[marioslaz]

First time user of FOG. As might be expected, it's a learning process. Playing Frisian versus Frisian as I figured an infantry slog would be a good introduction. Anyway.
Have encountered this situation and would appreciate some feedback or expert opinion. Thanks in advance.

Archers of one side have been in close combat with javelins from the other side. Javelins are getting thrashed but are holding on. Other warriors and household troops are moving up in support.

Page 47 of rule book tells me that "No interpenetrations are permitted when charging." So, the impact swordsmen cannot wade through the friendly lights to get a hold of the enemy lights, or at least drive them away?

Confusingly, 4v of the FAQ warns me of getting skirmishers engaged with skirmishers if enemy non-skirmishers are close.

It seems as if one is stating one thing while the other states something else.

Can I move the impact guys up into contact? Who would drop in cohesion as a result, if anyone? Why would enemy lights stick around once they see the big bullies coming on?!

Again, thanks in advance.

Chris

What you are describing is not a matter of interpenetration during a charge, which can happen in some occasions but not as a voluntary move. If I rightly understood your situation, skirmishers are already engaged in melee. In this situation nobody can charge through them. The warn about skirmishers engaged while non skirmishers are close is about a different situation. If your skirmishers BG are involved in a melee, other than as an overlap, and they have bases not in contact with enemy (for example a base which is fighting as an overlap) enemy non skirmishers can charge against that base and skirmishers cannot evade (because they are engaged in melee). More, non skirmishers can also join the melee of skirmishers as overlap and also in this case your skirmishers cannot evade.
So:

• No BG can interpenetrate friends voluntary during a charge (you cannot declare a charge if there is a friend between your BG and the target)
• Shock troops can burst through friend to charge, but not if target is skirmishers or if friends are already engaged in melee (your situation)

[Chris1066]

Thanks to all for the information. Something else to chew on besides turkey and trimmings this day, I guess.

For what it's worth, I thought I was using the lights historically ... they are in front of the main bodies and they are preventing each other from harassing their heavier brothers. I guess my inability to wrap my head around this restriction stems from using another set of rules for the past few years. Old habits die hard, I guess. But apparently, lights in melee between two main battle lines of heavies die harder.

Thanks again for taking to the time to help me out. I do appreciate it.

Chris

[hammy]

Using lights to screen and attempt to disrupt is fine. If you don't want a melee to happen between your lights and his then if he charges evade with your lights who will fall back through your heavies. Then your heavies can charge.

[grahambriggs]

Chris the way that lights fighting each other can get rudely interrupted by heavies is if, for example the lights have a file fighting as an overlap.

If your lights are better at fighting than the enemy - protected roman velites for example, you can get stuck in to equivalent enemy. That way you can pick up some cheap points off the enemy if they stand their ground. It still slows things up a bit though.

[Dragondelboy]

Hi, could you clarify an interpenetration query for me? Again it is LF in 2 ranks almost touching bases with enemy HI superior legionairies. Directly behind the LF is their own Elite HI legionaries. LF are not in melee just shooting at point blank. The LF player is now the active player. In the Impact Phase does he declare a charge with his elites because they are impact troops or would that be illegal. If he can what happens to the LF?

Thanks

[Mehrunes]

He cannot declare charge but it is possible that his legionaries will charge without orders. See p. 58 in the rulebook when and how it happens.