Weimarians

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:49 pm

I'm wondering if we ought to have a separate list for Bernard of Saxe-Weimar's army from 1635 onwards?

Additionally anyone know any good sources on him and his army?

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 pm

Well, he is one of the reasons why I'm still contemplating splitting the Protestant list (although after 1635 he can hardly described as a protestant commander, but then the whole War was no longer one of religion anyway).
As for the armies, they seem to become more and more similar. Actually I've considered to have an early protestant and early catholic and a combined late war germans list. In other words, depends on how big one considers the swedish influence on later 'protestant' armies was (with Bernhard probably notable) I'm still somewhat undecided there.

Of course given the scarcity of major battles during the late war actual troop details are somewhat hard to come by. As far as I can say Bernhard tried to organise his troops according to the Swedish model, but since he took in large numbers of troops from Lothringen and Hessen I'm not sure how throughout that was. Might be best simulated by a Swedish army with German contingents (or the other way round). If that justifies a seperate list, probably depends on how many additions we want to allow to the lists. With FoG:AM I would have said it makes for a nice special campaign addition to either a German or Swedish list for that period.

Slightly unrelated, but affecting Bernhards earlier career. I'm still waiting for one Book that supposedly has the best and most complete listing of the various armies that fought in southern German 1631-1635 (especially covering the battles of Bamberg, Zirndorf and Nördlingen), the darn thing has proven rather elusive though (out of print, can't find it as a used book either, not at my local library and waiting 6 weeks on inter library loan so far, grrrr).

Oh and that's also a 'No' to your second questions, several source, not a single one I would call 'good' so far, but I'm going for another long afternoon at the library tomorrow, did your German improve recently?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:28 am

Ghaznavid wrote:Well, he is one of the reasons why I'm still contemplating splitting the Protestant list (although after 1635 he can hardly described as a protestant commander, but then the whole War was no longer one of religion anyway).
As for the armies, they seem to become more and more similar. Actually I've considered to have an early protestant and early catholic and a combined late war germans list. In other words, depends on how big one considers the swedish influence on later 'protestant' armies was (with Bernhard probably notable) I'm still somewhat undecided there.

I'm happy to have that list scheme if it makes sense - it certainly fits with my reading about the armies post c.1635 being very similar. Recent books in English talk about a "German" style of warfare in this later part of the war rather than, say, "Swedish", etc. which they use for the earlier part. To be honest I don't think tactically there was anything particularly "Swedish" after Nordlingen anyway - it certainly appears to have been the last use fo the Swedish brigade and salvo system.

Of course given the scarcity of major battles during the late war actual troop details are somewhat hard to come by. As far as I can say Bernhard tried to organise his troops according to the Swedish model, but since he took in large numbers of troops from Lothringen and Hessen I'm not sure how throughout that was. Might be best simulated by a Swedish army with German contingents (or the other way round). If that justifies a seperate list, probably depends on how many additions we want to allow to the lists. With FoG:AM I would have said it makes for a nice special campaign addition to either a German or Swedish list for that period.

From what I've read so far I see the Weimarian army to be essentailly a German one with increasing numbers of French added after 1639 following Bernard's death and the appointment of a French C-in-C. The bit I'm trying to nail down is whether the Weimarians were a factor in changing the style of French cavalry tactics.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:54 pm

Karsten - any further thoughts now you've done some lists for this period?

I take it your 1632-1648 German list is to cover all German based armies in this period regardless of which side they were on? I'm assuming this would cover the Swedes as well - is this correct?

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:19 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Karsten - any further thoughts now you've done some lists for this period?

I take it your 1632-1648 German list is to cover all German based armies in this period regardless of which side they were on? I'm assuming this would cover the Swedes as well - is this correct?

Well it would be a bit bold to think it really covers each and everything, but given the scale ... yes I do think there are not very many distinguishing features to the various armies raised in Germany anymore by this time, no matter where or by whom the troops where raised. The slight variances should be covered by the Later 30YW Germans list IMHO. (Or in other words 30YW armies, especially later ones are almost Napoleonesc in their dullness.)
If we go smaller almost to a skirmish level one can find somewhat more variances, but that's not what FoG:R is designed for I think.

It would be possible to allow a smattering of French or Swedish troops to be taken from the list, but I think they are better dealt with as ally contingents rather then as optional troops for the list as such 'foreign contingents' (where present) pretty invariably seem to have formed their own division.
(This hold certainly true for the Spanish, seems similar for the French and as for the Swedes ... I'm not sure there were enough actual Swedish troops left after 1634 to worry about. The only ones that might be different in this regard are the Dutch, but their armies did not seem to differ to any significant amount from the Germans at this point.)

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:37 pm

Having had a good look at the Later TYW German list you drafted I think I'll do a separate one for the post-Nordlingen Swedes that also covers the Weimarians under Bernhard and then French leadership until the French component of the army inn Germany essentailly means it is covered by the French lists.