Interpentration and Blocking BG

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:01 pm

I was playing Classical Indians vs. Early Seleucid, and had an interesting situation.

A Seleucid Light Foot BG in two ranks screening a pike BG evaded a charging BG. Adjacent to the pikes was a Seleucid Elephant BG. Its front was behind the front line of the pike by a little over 2 MU.

Moving their full evade move, the LF would stop short of the Elephants, but would be partway through the Pike. With the additional 2 MU allowed to pass through the pike, the light foot could pass through the Pike but could not pass all the way through the Elephants.

Reading on p. 48, left column, last bullet:

If a battle group does not have sufficient move distance to pass fully through another battle group:

Light foot pass completely through if there is room beyond and they do not exceed their normal move distance by more than 2 MU's. They cannot shoot this turn.

In all other cases, bases of the moving battle group that reach the battle group being interpenetrated are moved all the way through and are placed at the far side. Those that did not reach are placed with the front rank in contact with the near side. If any do not pass through, the battle group making the interpenetration is DISORDERED until the interpenetration is completed in a subsequent turn. Other battle groups blocking placement of the moving battle group's bases are moved as far as necessary in the direction the interpenetration to make room. ...

Since the Seleucid Elephant prevented the LF from completing its evade through the pike, I moved the elephants back the 2 MU plus to make room.

Was this correct?

Mark

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:14 pm

I think you would get this

As the LF all get into the pike, but do not all get into the nellies. Any bases that reach go through. Any that do not are left on the other side.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:24 pm

The short answerr is yes you did right.

if the base lined up their may be something to what phil posted. But the short version is you were basically correct.

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks gents-- so, in Phil's example, a BG can be broken up into more than two pieces? I was operating on the assumption (bad idea...) that the ranks had to stay contiguous.

The rear base behind the elephant in Phil's example could not make it that far without exceeding it's evade move +2 MU additional grace to pass through. If a file (as opposed to a rank) can separate from the BG, would both ranks of the rightmost file stay in front of the elephant?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:12 pm

I don't believe you would move the elephants the skirmishers would be broken up until next turn when they reform on either side of the pikes and elephants. It should have looked like Phils example.
You can't voluntarily break up a formation but in a combat situation you can be forced out of formation, you then reform during your next movement phase or at your first opportunity.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:43 pm

So looking at Phils post what if you shifted the light green bases1/2 base to the right.

How do you think it looks?

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:48 pm

So looking at Phils post what if you shifted the light green bases1/2 base to the right.

How do you think it looks?

Either way I think both leftmost skirmisher stands (front and rear) would end up in front of the Nellies, since neither had the move allowance to make it through.

So, overall, going with Phil and Mr. Torius, would I be correct in inferring that skirimishers, by dint of being able to interpenetrate would never push back another BG--(thus leaving them bumped up against or behind other BG's depending on distance.) Understanding that the blocking/pushing part of the rule being applicable to those BG's with a higher specific gravity?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:55 pm

So looking at Phils post what if you shifted the light green bases1/2 base to the right.

Checked the rules can't shif unless you can't penetrate friends, avoid enemies or impassible terrrain or camps. Skirmishers can't really shift at all, also could not find any chances of dropping back stands which would make your formation deeper and easier to contact.
Had a similar problem myself, the curse of the pike block since they are so deep.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:09 pm

deadtorius wrote:
So looking at Phils post what if you shifted the light green bases1/2 base to the right.
Checked the rules can't shif unless you can't penetrate friends, avoid enemies or impassible terrrain or camps. Skirmishers can't really shift at all, also could not find any chances of dropping back stands which would make your formation deeper and easier to contact.
Had a similar problem myself, the curse of the pike block since they are so deep.

I mean shift for purposes of starting location. not as an evade.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:10 am

philqw78 wrote:As the LF all get into the pike, but do not all get into the nellies. Any bases that reach go through. Any that do not are left on the other side.

I agree with you. I haven't my rules, but even if this case wasn't covered by rules your solution is logical and a great example of how to get a logical result using the elements of FOG game.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:20 am

Each base is resolved seperately.
As they are LF if a normal move +2 MU (i.e. 7MU in open) will get you clear, then you move clear. If you use this then you must get completely clear, you can't move other BGs out of the way as that is in the all other cases section.

Bases that reach the pike are placed beyond the pike, bases behind them that don't reach the pike are placed before the pike, the elephant is moved back to make room.
Bases that are beside the pike move their full evade move.

Diagram 3 is correct if and only if all the skirmishers reach pike in front of them - however from the shape of the BGs I would guess that at least 1 file of skirmishers has no pike in fron of them.

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:40 pm

sagji wrote:Each base is resolved seperately.
As they are LF if a normal move +2 MU (i.e. 7MU in open) will get you clear, then you move clear. If you use this then you must get completely clear, you can't move other BGs out of the way as that is in the all other cases section.

Bases that reach the pike are placed beyond the pike, bases behind them that don't reach the pike are placed before the pike, the elephant is moved back to make room.
Bases that are beside the pike move their full evade move.

Diagram 3 is correct if and only if all the skirmishers reach pike in front of them - however from the shape of the BGs I would guess that at least 1 file of skirmishers has no pike in fron of them.

I definitely agree with this. Mark won't be surprised-we're gaming pals and he shared this with me-he was playing a solitaire battle when this came up.

However, a mutual friend of ours expressed some astonishment that evading LF could "push" Elephants back. It seemed like a reasonable objection. I'm curious what the designers think. My take is that, since FoG bases are considerably deeper than actual unit depths would be, this may represent a shifting in the elephants' area of influence (I'll refrain from saying "zone of control" since that's mixing gaming mediums

Any thoughts?

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:47 pm

Now I'm more confused than ever.

Regarding the original diagrams:

however from the shape of the BGs I would guess that at least 1 file of skirmishers has no pike in fron of them.

One file of skirmishers did not contact the front of the pike and was in front of the Elephants.

Asking some basic questions more clearly, I hope--some are redundant or mutually exclusive, just trying to get my brain around this:

1. Can skirmishers push back a 'blocking' BG they can otherwise interpenetrate?

2. Can the stands of a file be temporarily separated from a BG of skirmishers while intermingled with one or more BG's that those stands cannot fully pass through?

3. Must the ranks of the evading BG remain contiguous?

4. If a portion of a BG of interpenetrating LF cannot pass through the BG which is furthest away and in the path of the evade, does each file or stand behave individually to satisfy the requirements of the rules?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:26 pm

1. Can skirmishers push back a 'blocking' BG they can otherwise interpenetrate?

No they can not

2. Can the stands of a file be temporarily separated from a BG of skirmishers while intermingled with one or more BG's that those stands cannot fully pass through?

Yes they can.

3. Must the ranks of the evading BG remain contiguous

No they don't have to if forced out of formation due to a combat situation, they evaded or taking losses from melee.

If a portion of a BG of interpenetrating LF cannot pass through the BG which is furthest away and in the path of the evade, does each file or stand behave individually to satisfy the requirements of the rules?

Files that can't pass through still retain base contact with their adjacent bases, those that have passed through will remain in contact with adjacent bases that also passed through.

Hope that was not too confusing

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:45 am

Seems clear--so then, wouldn't the two leftmost light green stands in Phil's diagram be disallowed--and have, instead, ended up piled in front of the Elephants?

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:41 pm

MarkSieber wrote:Now I'm more confused than ever.

Regarding the original diagrams:
however from the shape of the BGs I would guess that at least 1 file of skirmishers has no pike in fron of them.
One file of skirmishers did not contact the front of the pike and was in front of the Elephants.

Asking some basic questions more clearly, I hope--some are redundant or mutually exclusive, just trying to get my brain around this:

1. Can skirmishers push back a 'blocking' BG they can otherwise interpenetrate?

Yes - provided they don't reach it.

2. Can the stands of a file be temporarily separated from a BG of skirmishers while intermingled with one or more BG's that those stands cannot fully pass through?

Yes

3. Must the ranks of the evading BG remain contiguous?

Yes - but only for an incomplete interpenetration.

4. If a portion of a BG of interpenetrating LF cannot pass through the BG which is furthest away and in the path of the evade, does each file or stand behave individually to satisfy the requirements of the rules?

The "all other cases" section talks in terms of bases - so you work in terms of bases.
If a base reaches a BG it is placed beyond that BG. If it can't interpenetrate all the way through or space beyond can't be created then no interpenetration whatsoever is permitted.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:53 pm

sagji wrote:
MarkSieber wrote:1. Can skirmishers push back a 'blocking' BG they can otherwise interpenetrate?

Yes - provided they don't reach it.

I really cannot understand this. How can a skirmishers push back a blocking BG if they don't reach it? If skirmishers cannot reach the BG, the BG don't block them and so I see no reason why BG should be pushed back. More, if skirmishers don't reach the BG, how can they push it? Telepathically?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:23 pm

The pushing back allows BG that attempt to interpenetrate 2 BG to fit on the table if they don't reach the second. A game mechanic.
So

only has move to get through

so ends up pushing back

like so

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:23 pm

If the BG's were not lined up, would this change? --see below.

Stands:

= skirmishers

= can be reached

= can't be reached

= blank space

Starting position:

would the skirmishers end up at 1.:

or end up at 2?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:51 pm

I think you can only push back if the entire unit makes it through the interpentration and is a rule mechanic to keep a non-disordered unit together in a space where they can not fit otherwise.