Questions about Mixed Units

[dukewacoan]

Trying to understand Mixed BG references.

Early Byzantine Legiones
6-12 Bases, 2/3=HF, 1/3=LF

So how is this unit represented? 3 ranks?

HHHH
HHHH
LLLL

How about this?

Maurikian Byzantine Skoutatoi
8-12 bases, 3/4=HF, 1/4=LF

Again, how is this represented?

HHHH
HHHH
HHHH
LLLL

If this is the case, then 12 bases will be only 3 bases wide. How is this an advantage overall from the Early Byzantine, if at all?

Thanks

[hazelbark]

You can deploy them in any way you like.

The Skoutatoi you would normally want 2 HF deep and a 3rd rank of LF.

So if I had 9 HF and 3 LF. I would mostly deploy 4 wide witha a spare HF base in the 3rd rank probably in a middle position. The LF I would make sure are on the outside positions to try and make certain they count if i get hit at the end. You could deploy wider verus light opponents where you are trying to cover fortnage.

[dukewacoan]

So it is not necessary that all the ranks be uniform. So for an 8 base unit, you could do -

HHHH HHHH HHHH
HHHH HHHH HHHH
LLLL LLLL

[Robert241167]

I may be wrong but I think for 8 bases it is usually 1/2 and 1/2 whilst 9 bases is 2/3 and 1/3.

Rob

[dukewacoan]

For the Early Byzantines, the Infantry units are 2/3HF and 1/3LF. For the next era the Byzantine Infantry are 3/4 & 1/4. That's what got me a little confused. Representation means you are going to have some holes.

[Robert241167]

Apologies, I stand corrected.

Rob

[batesmotel]

Historically, the 3/4 HF, 1/4 LF skutatoi with a 12 stand BG are probably best represented as:

Code: Select all

HHH
HHH
LLL
HHH

Historically the Byzantine manuals called for a rear rank of spearmen in case the unit was taken in the rear by opponents. Not an unlikely prospect when fighting against steppe nomads or other mostly mounted opponents. Not necessarily the most effective way to deploy them on the table however.

Chris

[hazelbark]

So it is not necessary that all the ranks be uniform. So for an 8 base unit, you could do -

HHHH HHHH HHHH
HHHH HHHH HHHH
LLLL LLLL

Yes.

HHHH
HLLH

Is also legal.

[dukewacoan]

So in that case is the rear rank considered both 100% Bow and 100% HF? Since you count bases not figs?

[rbodleyscott]

So in that case is the rear rank considered both 100% Bow and 100% HF?

You will get support shooting dice only for the files that are in contact, and only if that file has a LF.

As a general rule (although it isn't relevant to this case) POAs are calculated on a per file basis - so the files with LF have LF and the files without LF don't.

[hazelbark]

To elaborate on Richard's point

HHL
Gets POA for 2nd rank spear and 3rd dice in impact for LF supporting fire at that POA.
In melee it gets a die for each of 1st two front ranks and a POA for 2nd spear rank

HL
Gets NO POA for 2nd rank spear because it doesn't have one, but gets 3rd dice in impact for LF supporting fire at that POA. In
In melee it gets a die for 1st rank and 1/2 die for 2nd rank. That 1/2 die will round up assuming no other things. It fights as front rank But no POA for 2nd spear rank for either dice.

Is that helpful?

[madaxeman]

To elaborate on Richard's point
HHL
Gets POA for 2nd rank spear and 3rd dice in impact for LF supporting fire at that POA.
In melee it gets a die for each of 1st two front ranks and a POA for 2nd spear rank
?

It only gets one "3rd rank" LF dice at impact for every 2 files that are fighting. LF shooting is rounded down always and only get one dice per 2 bases shooting.

Oddly enough, once you lose a spear and end up as

HL

you count as 2 ranks at 1 dice each and as spear POAs EXCLUDING the POA for a 2nd rank of spears - the LF fight as the same troop type as the front rank, a single LF base counts as 1/2 a dice but is rounded up in combat - but there is still only one rank of spears!

however

HL
HL

would get 3 dice at "1-rank" spearman factors as LF contribute 1 dice per 2 bases in combat - and you now have 2 bases

[sagji]

To elaborate on Richard's point
HHL
Gets POA for 2nd rank spear and 3rd dice in impact for LF supporting fire at that POA.
In melee it gets a die for each of 1st two front ranks and a POA for 2nd spear rank
?

It only gets one "3rd rank" LF dice at impact for every 2 files that are fighting. LF shooting is rounded down always and only get one dice per 2 bases shooting.

Not impact phase shooting.
Impact phase shooting is 1 dice per base (See impact dice table), but LF then loose 1 dice per 2. The result is that 1 LF shooting gets 1 Dice.

[MarkSieber]

And note that supporting LF shoot at impact only vs. mounted. (p.98, next to last bullet) MF may also target foot.

[Phaze_of_the_Moon]

It only gets one "3rd rank" LF dice at impact for every 2 files that are fighting. LF shooting is rounded down always and only get one dice per 2 bases shooting.

Oddly enough, once you lose a spear and end up as

HL

you count as 2 ranks at 1 dice each and as spear POAs EXCLUDING the POA for a 2nd rank of spears - the LF fight as the same troop type as the front rank, a single LF base counts as 1/2 a dice but is rounded up in combat - but there is still only one rank of spears!

however

HL
HL

would get 3 dice at "1-rank" spearman factors as LF contribute 1 dice per 2 bases in combat - and you now have 2 bases

So would

HHHH or HHHH
HLHL __ LHHL

fight differently than

HHHH or HHHH
LLHH __ HLLH

then?

[rogerg]

It depends which file the enemy contacts. Either one of two heavy foot or one of an HF and a LF.

[madaxeman]

To elaborate on Richard's point
HHL
Gets POA for 2nd rank spear and 3rd dice in impact for LF supporting fire at that POA.
In melee it gets a die for each of 1st two front ranks and a POA for 2nd spear rank
?

It only gets one "3rd rank" LF dice at impact for every 2 files that are fighting. LF shooting is rounded down always and only get one dice per 2 bases shooting.

Not impact phase shooting.
Impact phase shooting is 1 dice per base (See impact dice table), but LF then loose 1 dice per 2. The result is that 1 LF shooting gets 1 Dice.

I'm really not sure this is correct - its in impact, but it is shooting.

If its right, Ive been doing my Romans out of some dice...!

[philqw78]

Tim, we went through this. If you have 1 LF shoot at impact he gets 1 dice. If you have 2 he gets 1 dice, 3 then 2 dice, etc. They are combat dice at shooting factors, or some other oxymoronic statement.

[eldiablito]

This is slightly off topic, what happens when they are shot back. So, it is pretty obvious that when you shoot at a heavily armored unit's front, they count as heavy armor. However, perhaps you get a light horse unit behind? Would it count as protected?

[gozerius]

See page 95. If the shooter is entirely behind a line extending the target's rear edge the BG's armor class is that of the rear rank, otherwise that of the front rank.

I believe if there are a mixture of armor classes in the same rank, then the POA is based on the priority target of each file of shooters.