Conforming Again

[philqw78]

This came up last week. Green is a BG of lancers that Charged. A is Sparabara. B hoplites. After the impact the lancers could not conform. A and B were disrupted so the lancers did not break off in the JAP, although the cun(*)ing hoplites were brought back up to steady in the JAP.
In red's move does A conform, as conforming is done by BG. So from 1 to 2. This made a big difference as it put them in reach of a flank charge by some more lancers.

* insert 't' or 'n' as you see fit

[sagji]

Yes - it is an active player's BG that is in close combat.

[philqw78]

So the centre base of A can lose contact for the BG to conform, even though it was the base originally contacted?

The question was really about how and if they conformed not if they must attempt to.

[lawrenceg]

So the centre base of A can lose contact for the BG to conform, even though it was the base originally contacted?

The question was really about how and if they conformed not if they must attempt to.

PAge 70 tells you that your battle group must conform to the enemy bases in contact.

It does not require your bases in contact to stay in contact. It is only necessary that some part of your battlegroup ends up conformed (possibly only as an overlap).

[deadtorius]

I have to assume that it was the lancers that charged the foot. Therefore it is the lancers who would have to confom to the foot troops. By the looks of your diagram the lancers can not conform so they would not.

during the next players trun,(Greeks) they would conform by pivoting or sliding bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the bases in contacty. (pg 70) so yes I think you did it right.

another interpretation (here wo go cnfusing things again) would be that the contacted base shifts to conform, the bae to its right would have to drop back to a second rank behind the contacted base and the left base would become an overlap, although I am not sure this would be allowed since the contacted battle group must retain a proper formation when conforming.

Hope that was not too painful for you all but we shall see....

[marioslaz]

another interpretation (here wo go cnfusing things again) would be that the contacted base shifts to conform, the bae to its right would have to drop back to a second rank behind the contacted base and the left base would become an overlap, although I am not sure this would be allowed since the contacted battle group must retain a proper formation when conforming.

Hope that was not too painful for you all but we shall see....

Conforming is a mechanism to simplify things. If they add formation changes I guess the system would be more complicate and there would be more space for unfair behaviour.

[gozerius]

PAge 70 tells you that your battle group must conform to the enemy bases in contact.

It does not require your bases in contact to stay in contact. It is only necessary that some part of your battlegroup ends up conformed (possibly only as an overlap).

The diagrams on page 72 and 87 further clarify that each base in contact must move the minimum to line up in either full front edge contact or an overlap, with bases not in contact maintaining formation.
In this case, the base in contact pivots and slides to the left, which is the shortest distance to conform, though only as an overlap, as the adjacent base on its right moves into front edge contact with the enemy base. Had the initiasl base contacted the enemy to the left of center it would have been required to shift to the right and, as there is then no room for the righthand base to line up, the BG could not then conform. It would then fight with the base in contact counting as in full contact with the enemy base, and the lefthand base in overlap. The righthand base would not fight.

[richafricanus]

Not related to your question, but how could the hoplites have rallied in the JAP? Didn't they drop cohesion that same turn?

Richard

[sagji]

PAge 70 tells you that your battle group must conform to the enemy bases in contact.

It does not require your bases in contact to stay in contact. It is only necessary that some part of your battlegroup ends up conformed (possibly only as an overlap).

The diagrams on page 72 and 87 further clarify that each base in contact must move the minimum to line up in either full front edge contact or an overlap, with bases not in contact maintaining formation.
In this case, the base in contact pivots and slides to the left, which is the shortest distance to conform, though only as an overlap, as the adjacent base on its right moves into front edge contact with the enemy base. Had the initiasl base contacted the enemy to the left of center it would have been required to shift to the right and, as there is then no room for the righthand base to line up, the BG could not then conform. It would then fight with the base in contact counting as in full contact with the enemy base, and the lefthand base in overlap. The righthand base would not fight.

I have come to the conclusion that the top diagram on p72 is wrong.
The written rules on p70 take about BGs conforming, and the only move specified is the minimum pivot or shift to line up.
The diagram on p87 indicates the foot can only slide right - as no reason for being unable to conform left is given.

The diagram on p72 talks about bases moving the minimum pivot or slide and sideways up to one base width.
This 1 base width sideways isn't mentioned on P70, and is in addition to the minimum shift/pivot.
Using p72 on p87 allows the foot to slide left - but this is described as a combat that cannot line up. The only way that it can't line up under p72 is if determining lineing up is done before moving any BGs and on the assumption that no other BG will line up, text on why it can't line up would also need to say why it can't line up left.

[shall]

I think we now see the issue ...

Diag on page 72 is indeed how I play it FWIW

And as you say Alan it isn't exactly consistent with the diag on page 87

Hardly game busting, but we are on the case and in session. White smoke should emerge soon.

Si

[gozerius]

The diagrams are all correct. What you are doing is reading the lead in statement about conforming on page 70, and then ignoring all the information provided in the succeeding text and the examples of play. The diagrams show in a concrete way how different conform situations are resolved. You cannot read the lead-in sentance to a rules section, then ignore the rest of the information. The first bullet on page 70 says Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position. , Remember that everything moves the minimum distance necessary to line up bases in full front edge contact OR an overlap position. Then it gives an exception when contacting bases in the flank which do not turn to face. The diagram on page 72 states explicitly that a base will never slide more than a basewidth to conform. Why? Because the minimum distance to line up will normally not be greater than one basewidth. What is clear from the the diagrams but not in the main body of the rules is that the minimum necessary distance to line up is the shortest straight line distance to line up, regardless of other considerations. This is the sticking point about the diagram on page 87. The caption states that the foot would normally slide right, but is blocked by the enemy BG to its right. This is because the minimum distance necessary to line up is to the right and not to the left. This is why it does not move left.
The only time a base will move greater than a basewidth to line up after pivoting into full edge contact is after contacting a side edge other than by a legal flank charge. In that case the BG slides back to the first place that would qualify as an overlap or full front edge contact against the contacted enemy BG. Unless physically impossible.(ie. something else is already there.)


contact at an angle not qualifying as a flank charge.

Becomes






This is because the rules require the BG to move the minimum distance to line up with the front edge of the enemy BG, or a qualifying overlap.


In all other cases the minimum necessary distance will be no greater than a basewidth. and usually less than half a basewidth.
In fact the only other time that a base would slide more than half a basewidth after pivottingwould be when it is the only base contacting an enemy BG and covers less than half the enemy base.
[ ][ ]
[ ][ ]
In this case, the lefthand base must slide left to qualify as conformed. Sliding right breaks contact with the enemy as it does not qualify as an overlap.

[Blathergut]

dude...how do you keep arguing with the author(s) when obviously not everyone has the same interpretation and they are trying to clarify? Why not let them clarify and then continue the debate if necessary?

[shall]

The first bullet on page 70 says Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position. , Remember that everything moves the minimum distance necessary to line up bases in full front edge contact OR an overlap position.

The first bullet points doesn't say that at all. If we are going to argue about words at least lets start with the actual ones in the book, including the diags.

Clearly if it did say what you have written there would be no debate ... but it doesn't.

Si

[gozerius]

The italicized portion of my statement is an exact quote from the rule book. I then refer back to the lead statement drawing attention to the requirement that the move is by the minimum necessary. These two together, as supported by the examples of play, which show all movement being by the shortest measurable distance to a valid frontal contact or overlap position, or to maintain formation, are what I base my argument on. In every example of play a base moves no further than the shortest distance to line up in a valid position. In the case of the example on page 87, the caption identifies the "normal" conforming direction for the foot BG and shows that it is blocked, preventing the BG from conforming.
In the absence of the enemy BG the foot BG would line up to the right. It is physically impossible due to intervening enemy. It doesn't line up. Why is this so hard?
Earlier you asked if this makes sense, and the answer is yes. What doesn't make sense is a BG that conforms away from the shortest move, which is what many people seem to want to happen. It contradicts the rules for the sake of "tidiness". I would prefer to fight the closest base and not the one further away. Each diagram presents a different situation and describes how it is to be resolved. As part of the rulebook, they are official interpretations of the rules, and cannot be dismissed lightly. If we cannot use the info provided to make informed decisions about how the rules apply in similar situations, then they are less than worthless.

[lawrenceg]

The first bullet on page 70 says Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position. , Remember that everything moves the minimum distance necessary to line up bases in full front edge contact OR an overlap position.

The first bullet points doesn't say that at all. If we are going to argue about words at least lets start with the actual ones in the book, including the diags.

Clearly if it did say what you have written there would be no debate ... but it doesn't.

Si

IMO if it says "move the minimum necessary" (which it does) and it is necessary to move quite a long way because shorter conform moves are blocked, then you must move quite a long way because that is what is necessary.

The confusion comes mainly from the diagram on P87, which contradicts this.

The authors are on the case so we should see a ruling on this before long.

[deadtorius]

The authors are on the case so we should see a ruling on this before long.

Lets hope so