Forming Vassals Complaint

[Buttons]

Demesne being a restricting factor is reasonable, even a downright good mechanic given the era the game is based on, however it's crippled by the fact that the mere ability to form vassals (as well as other events) is based entirely on luck. Depending on the starting country (Sicily being one example) being unlucky and not rolling vassal formation decision is downright crippling, while in other cases it at best highly limits expansion and massively slows the game down. I don't mind vassals being a threat, the idea of vassals absorbing each other through marriage and succession, or expanding faster than you outside your domain would be reasonable (see the Duchy of Burgundy in late medieval France who became a largely autonomous country in its own right) and them deciding to either gain independence or topple and replace you is good too, but the fact that I can be outright paralyzed by my inability to just give a noble a hereditary ownership over a territory is annoying an immersion breaking when many times vassals were formed by monarchs just giving territory to their sons, brothers, or other people of power and influence.

How to have this work mechanically can be debated maybe make it a decision with no recoup cost that the player gets at least every couple of few turns (say 50% chance of getting the event per turn) which would be clunky but work fine, maybe some sort of diplomacy thing, or a direct interaction with a province, but the fact that I can play dozens of turns without getting it can ruin playthroughs in terms of at least enjoyment by grinding my expansion to a halt. Hell I didn't even know it was a decision and assumed I missed a mechanic until I saw it after about a combined 60 turns of multiple playthroughs.

[Patrat]

You can create a vassal thru diplomacy without the use of a regional decision. Basically through bribery, royal marriage and having a much larger army you can browbeat a weaker country into being a vassal.

I did this to Naverre early on in my current game as Aragon. I have a bug where I can't use the Regional Decision. It's a limitation sure, but I worked around it to become a mighty Empire. I was over demesne limit for quite awhile without any really bad effects. No coups, just the usual revolts in southern Iberia.

[choppinlt]

Demesne being a restricting factor is reasonable, even a downright good mechanic given the era the game is based on, however it's crippled by the fact that the mere ability to form vassals (as well as other events) is based entirely on luck. Depending on the starting country (Sicily being one example) being unlucky and not rolling vassal formation decision is downright crippling, while in other cases it at best highly limits expansion and massively slows the game down. I don't mind vassals being a threat, the idea of vassals absorbing each other through marriage and succession, or expanding faster than you outside your domain would be reasonable (see the Duchy of Burgundy in late medieval France who became a largely autonomous country in its own right) and them deciding to either gain independence or topple and replace you is good too, but the fact that I can be outright paralyzed by my inability to just give a noble a hereditary ownership over a territory is annoying an immersion breaking when many times vassals were formed by monarchs just giving territory to their sons, brothers, or other people of power and influence.

How to have this work mechanically can be debated maybe make it a decision with no recoup cost that the player gets at least every couple of few turns (say 50% chance of getting the event per turn) which would be clunky but work fine, maybe some sort of diplomacy thing, or a direct interaction with a province, but the fact that I can play dozens of turns without getting it can ruin playthroughs in terms of at least enjoyment by grinding my expansion to a halt. Hell I didn't even know it was a decision and assumed I missed a mechanic until I saw it after about a combined 60 turns of multiple playthroughs.

IMHO you make a compelling argument, and I can't disagree with all you are saying. However as Patrat stated, there are intentional work arounds. Diplomatically entice, or fight them and force them to accept vassalage. Otherwise you can alter the chance to receive the Form Vassal RGD in the RGD Panel by pressing the tiny "Expert Mode" button.

The nice thing about the way it currently works is that it is not easily manipulated and creates different challenges and thought processes.

[Buttons]

IMHO you make a compelling argument, and I can't disagree with all you are saying. However as Patrat stated, there are intentional work arounds. Diplomatically entice, or fight them and force them to accept vassalage. Otherwise you can alter the chance to receive the Form Vassal RGD in the RGD Panel by pressing the tiny "Expert Mode" button.

The nice thing about the way it currently works is that it is not easily manipulated and creates different challenges and thought processes.

The issue is that the randomness can massively change the difficulty. Apulia and Calabria for example is rated as 3 star difficulty and is an order of magnitude more difficult than Normandy which is rated a four star because Normandy actually has reasonable ways to expand and good authority output at the start.

I've had no luck vassalizing anyone diplomatically, and while force of arms is an option it thematically sounds stupid to forcibly subjugate someone and then giving him vast swathes of territory instead of conquering him and giving one of your own nobles his and additional territories as a fiefdom since the whole issue in question is having too much territory not wanting to expand into territories controlled by countries which can be subjugated.

[choppinlt]

Well I have some good news... I just saw that a change is coming in 1.02 Beta that you will be guaranteed a Form Vassal RGD if you have 75+ authority.

[Patrat]

force of arms is an option it thematically sounds stupid to forcibly subjugate someone and then giving him vast swathes of territory

Actually, in real life there are cases where that is exactly what happened.