Relation between POI and moral and strength in numbers

[Octavian_slith]

I am struggling to find any formula that could describe the relation between POI (as far as I understand these numbers are based on class, weapon, terrain, etc.) and the Experience, Moral and sheer number of men in a unit.
How can I come to grips with an idea of how this all is related so I can make an informed decision about whom to strike or defend with whom related to all relevant numbers???
In the detailed tooltip there is a focus on the POI, but some of the figures there are never explained in the manual. So a precise description of a typical tooltip before a clash of two units would also be very appreciated. Thanks in advance for all answers! Really like the game but need to have more grip on it to have long lasting joy out of it.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I'm going to say right away that, while I have the POAs memorized, I have never bothered to fully mathematically learn the % effects of other things, instead playing by general feel, which works well enough. That said -

The Impact and Melee POA tables in the manual will give you a strong overview on how things interact. POA advantage is capped at +200; if a unit is at +200, it is almost guaranteed not to lose a combat. +50 is the difference between an Average and a Superior unit; a good chance for the superior unit to win.

Just as important as POAs is the ability of units to handle cohesion tests; see the section in the manual on cohesion, but all sorts of things will effect a unit's ability to pass a test, from its quality, whether a friendly commander is in melee nearby, what its current cohesion state is, how many casualties it has taken, whether there is a flank threat, etc etc. The Cohesion Table lays these out nicely, as does this guide for Pike and Shot - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =735499412

As for other %, these come from three sources - disorder, morale state, and combat strength modifier. The former two do not stack, instead the worst is chosen for effect. Severe Disorder is roughly equivalent to Fragmented in terms of its effect on your unit's ability to fight, Moderate Disorder to Disrupted. Note from the POA table that certain abilities are dependent on a unit being Steady - Spearmen for example fully cancel enemy Swordsmen POA, but only if they are Steady. Combat Strength Modifier is based on the size of your unit vs the enemy units, or if its facing multiple foes. Obviously, more is bad, but Combat Strength doesn't matter in the Impact phase.

Really you don't need to know much more than the POAs and terrain effects to be good at the game though. No doubt other players do know the actual calculations involved...

[Octavian_slith]

Thanks a lot, Snuggle Bunny, for your quick reply.
I have read the manual thoroughly and studied the POA and Melee tables, too.
Still, I am struggling about the impact of troop quality (experience), strength in numbers and moral state in comparison with the POA numbers. I couldn´t tell how to speculate about the battle outcome of a let´s say bad moral, low strength unit that still has a good POA relation on a specific enemy.
I don´t want to sit there with a calculator in my hand, don´t get me wrong, but I would like to have an at least rough understanding of how important unit quality (strength, moral, etc.) is in regard to the POA factors and the manual has me lost in that regard.
So, thanks for bringing in some clarity, but I could still need some more of it.. sorry.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Thanks a lot, Snuggle Bunny, for your quick reply.
I have read the manual thoroughly and studied the POA and Melee tables, too.
Still, I am struggling about the impact of troop quality (experience), strength in numbers and moral state in comparison with the POA numbers. I couldn´t tell how to speculate about the battle outcome of a let´s say bad moral, low strength unit that still has a good POA relation on a specific enemy.
I don´t want to sit there with a calculator in my hand, don´t get me wrong, but I would like to have an at least rough understanding of how important unit quality (strength, moral, etc.) is in regard to the POA factors and the manual has me lost in that regard.
So, thanks for bringing in some clarity, but I could still need some more of it.. sorry.

this may be of use to you:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107541

[Octavian_slith]

It indeed helped a bit - thanks.
So, I figured out, that POI MOdifier is a sort of how the POA Ratings translate into overall combat difference (percent), where 100 POA = 33%. And troop quality seems to be already integrated into one of the POA figures.
Then the morale kicks in.
But what is "Combat strength modifier" in the detailled tooltip then?
And where is the difference in manpower hidden? Does it play any role at all if you are striking with 800 or 240 men?

To give you an example of my "worries": What if a raw frightened mob of 200 peasants stabs some hatamoto samurais in excellent condition in the back?? IN regard to POI a flanking manoeuver gives you 200 POI as a result of all factors and without further addo. Does that mean, those 200 have the most devastating effect ANY unit can have on the samurais?? Or where comes their big difference in say numbers, experience, moral into play???

Sorry for asking such nasty stuff.. it is just because I really enjoy the tension the Game gives you very much and admire the KI more and more.

[SnuggleBunnies]

But what is "Combat strength modifier" in the detailled tooltip then?
And where is the difference in manpower hidden? Does it play any role at all if you are striking with 800 or 240 men?

So in short, combat strength is the number of men on each side. But of course in terms of details, it is far more complicated. 480 men is the standard size of an infantry unit. If it is facing another unit of say 480 infantry, the unit that has suffered more losses will start suffering from a negative combat strength modifier. However, a unit of infantry that starts with more than 480 men will not suffer from combat strength modifier in a 1v1 until it falls below 480.

That said, cavalry is different; for combat strength terms, 240 cavalrymen is roughly equivalent to 320 infantrymen. (from the tabletop system - a "base" of infantry is 80 men, a "base" of cavalry 60.

Furthermore, combat strength modifier is effected by how many enemy units one unit is fighting, with each additional unit up to 3 total compounding the modifier.

That said, none of this matters for Impact, in which combat strength modifier is not taken into account

To give you an example of my "worries": What if a raw frightened mob of 200 peasants stabs some hatamoto samurais in excellent condition in the back?? IN regard to POI a flanking manoeuver gives you 200 POI as a result of all factors and without further addo. Does that mean, those 200 have the most devastating effect ANY unit can have on the samurais?? Or where comes their big difference in say numbers, experience, moral into play???

Mostly correct, as 200 is the maximum, in terms of POA, peasants will be just as dangerous as anything in a flank attack, on Impact at least. In the following melee, not so much, if the Hatamoto hold at disrupted. That said, some categories of troops (such as Impact Foot, or cavalry vs Medium Foot in Open) inflict an additional -1 Cohesion Test Modifier when units lose to them. See the very useful pg 126 of the manual.

If you want to dig into the math, there is a spreadsheet created by kronenblatt. It's for FoG2, but it's the same system for all 4 games in the series. You can play with entering things into the first two tabs to see results, the rest are informational. Shoot me a private message with your email and I can share it to you.

[Octavian_slith]

Thanks a lot for your time and effort! It´s getting clearer.
That said, I am still struggling with the term "Impact Foot", since I haven´t come across that troop type in sengoku jidai. Or is it a sort of capability for certain troop types? It is a bit misleading that you have the impact phase in which some capabilities of units come into play and then you have "impact foot". The charts in the manual aren´t helpful here, because at some point impact foot occur as troop type, but that seems to be with regard to modders that are trying to integrate the pike and shoot troop types. If I am wrong, I would really like to know, which troops are "foot impact" in sengoku jidai.
Maybe I have choosen the wrong troop tables so far (something before 1530 as fas as I remember), that I didn´t come across any.
BTW I am playing on level 3 and the AI really gives me a challenge. I am loosing more or less half of my battles.
The strategic layer is a bit thin for my taste and you have very little influence on how to compose your army, but the tactical battles are a nail-bitting thing and really fun. Would love to see some units grow to me, but that´s not the focus of the game, I am afraid.

[SnuggleBunnies]

That said, I am still struggling with the term "Impact Foot", since I haven´t come across that troop type in sengoku jidai. Or is it a sort of capability for certain troop types? It is a bit misleading that you have the impact phase in which some capabilities of units come into play and then you have "impact foot". The charts in the manual aren´t helpful here, because at some point impact foot occur as troop type, but that seems to be with regard to modders that are trying to integrate the pike and shoot troop types. If I am wrong, I would really like to know, which troops are "foot impact" in sengoku jidai.
Maybe I have choosen the wrong troop tables so far (something before 1530 as fas as I remember), that I didn´t come across any.

There are none in the Japanese lists at home, but a number appear in various continental lists:
Wokou Pirates of various sorts
Korean Warrior Monks
Various Chinese Rattan Shield and Swordsmen

It is a more common troop type in FoG, also being rather uncommon in Pike and Shot.

It's a capability just like say, Light Spear, Swordsmen, or Heavy Weapon are capabilities. Some capabilities are for the Impact phase, some for the Melee phase, some function in both. Impact Foot is an Impact only capability, but in Sengoku Jidai units that have it always also have Swordsmen, which is a melee only capability. Understanding how POAs interact is the heart of the game.

For example, let's say you have a unit of Impact/Swordsmen vs a unit of Spearmen. For the sake of simplicity, let's disregard complicating factors like generals, quality, armor, or terrain. Impact Foot get 100 POA on Impact. Spearmen get 0 Impact against Impact Foot, despite getting 100 in most other situations. In Melee, both Spearmen and Swordsmen get 100 POA... however, Swordsmen get 0 POA against Steady Spearmen. So, Impact Foot have a good chance of Disrupting the Spearmen on Impact, thus unlocking their Swordsmen POA. If the Spearmen are Steady, and hold firm on contact, they have a substantial advantage. Thus a player using many Swordsmen might aim to use terrain or missile fire to render the enemy Spearmen Unsteady first, rather than taking the gamble of a simple charge to attempt disruption.

BTW I am playing on level 3 and the AI really gives me a challenge. I am loosing more or less half of my battles.
The strategic layer is a bit thin for my taste and you have very little influence on how to compose your army, but the tactical battles are a nail-bitting thing and really fun. Would love to see some units grow to me, but that´s not the focus of the game, I am afraid.

3 is a good place to be at the start. When you are really good, you will usually win the 2nd highest difficulty level. The highest remains touch and go no matter what. Dispensing with modesty, if you wish to watch/hear the thoughts of an experienced player, you can watch things from my SJ playlist here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... swK2ydI_cN

Note that the older videos are in ye olden 720p, before I realized semi modernity.

[Octavian_slith]

Thanks a lot dear comrade, you helped me - and hopefully some other guys - a lot with that chat.
I also appreciate the Excel-sheet and will play around with it.
It might turn out, now that I have a couple of battles on my account - that the battles are a little bit too chaotic for my taste. Especially the pursuit often changes a lot. I like a dose of friction of war, but I feel that in here it might play such a major role, that it takes a bit of the joy of planning your battle from me. But I will not give up on that point, maybe I still have to learn more and get more foreseeable results.
Your last example was very helpful by the way. I really must lern that POA tables...now that the "impact foot" problem has dissolved..

[SnuggleBunnies]

Thanks a lot dear comrade, you helped me - and hopefully some other guys - a lot with that chat.
I also appreciate the Excel-sheet and will play around with it.
It might turn out, now that I have a couple of battles on my account - that the battles are a little bit too chaotic for my taste. Especially the pursuit often changes a lot. I like a dose of friction of war, but I feel that in here it might play such a major role, that it takes a bit of the joy of planning your battle from me. But I will not give up on that point, maybe I still have to learn more and get more foreseeable results.
Your last example was very helpful by the way. I really must lern that POA tables...now that the "impact foot" problem has dissolved..;)

You're very welcome. The battles in FoG2/M are rather less chaotic, as infantry pursuits were considerably toned down, to only warriors and raw units, and flank attacks only cause auto drops with +200 against units that are already engaged in melee. The FoG2 Features series of mods for Pike and Shot by Cronos also reduce infantry pursuits in the same way, but he never made it for SJ.