Add Kardakes/Cardaces to the Achaemenid 419-329 BC and the Seleucid 300-206 BC lists?

[Dux Limitis]

There's a common mistake that indicates the kardakes are foreign mercenaries, from some sources(and some no longer extant), the word was known to later Greek lexicographers and Byzantine scholars, however, they had no real knowledge of the exact meaning of this term and therefore wavered between soldiers in Asia(from Pausanias of Damascus), foreign mercenaries(from Hesychius of Miletus),foreign soldiers under Persian command(from Aelius Dionysius)or similar definitions, but further research found it's not.

First is Strabo and his Geographica:

From five years of age to 24, they are trained to use the bow, to throw the javelin, to ride horseback and to speak the truth; and they use as teachers of science their wisest men, who also interweave their teachings with the mythical element, thus reducing that element to a useful purpose, and rehearse both with song and without song the deeds both of the gods and of the noblest men. And these teachers wake the boys up before dawn by the sound of brazen instruments, and assemble them in one place, as though for arming themselves or for a hunt; and then they divide the boys into companies of 50, appoint one of the sons of the king or of a satrap as leader of each company, and order them to follow their leader in a race, having marked off a distance of 30 or 40 stadia. They require them also to give an account of each lesson, at the same time training them in loud speaking and in breathing, and in the use of their lungs, and also training them to endure heat and cold and rains, and to cross torrential streams in such a way as to keep both armour and clothing dry, and also to tend to flocks and live outdoors all night and eat wild fruits, such as pistachio nuts, acorns and wild pears. These are called cardaces, since they live on thievery, for ‘carda’ means the manly and warlike spirit. Their daily food after their gymnastic exercises consists of bread, barley-cake, cardamom, grains of salt and roasted or boiled meat; but their drink is water. They hunt by throwing spears from horseback, and with bows and slings; and late in the afternoon they are trained in the planting of trees and in the cutting and gathering of roots and in making weapons and in the art of making linen clothes and hunters’ nets. The boys do not touch the meat of wild animals, though it is the custom to bring them home. Prizes are offered by the king for victory in running and in the four other contests of the pentathla(15.3.18)

They(it seems abundantly clear that this is a continued discussion of the so-called cardaces)serve in the army and hold commands from 20 to 50 years of age, both as foot-soldiers and as horsemen; and they do not approach a marketplace, for they neither sell nor buy. They arm themselves with a rhomboidal wicker shield; and besides quivers they have swords and knives; and on their heads they wear a tower-like hat; and their breastplates are made of scales of iron(15.3.19).

Strabo provided information about the kardakes/cardaces, and says that those young Persians who are trained in many things, among them the use of weapons, up to 24 years of age are called kardakes, and receive regular military training. According to his descriptions, the kardakes are more like the peltasts, which had already been represented in the game as the takabara foot, but they were taught to wear armor made by scales of iron, perhaps should make some adjustments to their armor rating?

Second is Arrian and his Anabasis of Alexander(2.8.6), Cornelius Nepos and his Datames(8.2), Arrian remains the principal source because his writing was based much on eyewitnesses like Ptolemy and Aristobulus. Cornelius' writing was based on Dinon and it's reliable too. Both of them said that the Kardakes were "also hoplites" and clearly distinguished them from the Greek mercenary hoplites. So I think is it possible to add some units of Persian textures drilled hoplites to the Achaemenid 419-329 BC list?

Another thing is Polybius mentioned that Antiochus III of Seleucid in the battle of Raphia had 1000 kardakes under the command of the Galatian Lysimachus in his Histories(5.82.1), I think according to this maybe should add a few units of takabara foot or Persian textures hoplites(underdetermine)to the Seleucid 300-206 BC list?

[rbodleyscott]

See the discussion in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head,

It seems likely that some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites but not all.

I will add 0-4 units of Kardakes Hoplites (in 1200 point army) to the 419-329 BC Persian list in the next full update.

Paul Adaway has kindly supplied the modded unit and textures.

[Dux Limitis]

See the discussion in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head,

It seems likely that some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites but not all.

I will add 0-4 units of Kardakes Hoplites (in 1200 point army) to the 419-329 BC Persian list in the next full update.

Paul Adaway has kindly supplied the modded unit and textures.

Thank you sir and the generous Mr.Paul, I think maybe should add several more of them(in 2000 point army), 4 units(roughly two thousand men)are a bit low for the Achaemenid army. And which type of kardakes do you think were been recorded on the Seleucid side in the battle of Raphia(and add to the corresponding army list), takabara foot or Persian-style hoplites? I think perhaps need 2 units(a thousand men according to the Polybius). Also should adjust the Epic Issus(where some of the sources claimed the kardakes were armed as hoplites from)and Raphia scenarios to add the appropriate units.

[rbodleyscott]

See the discussion in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head,

It seems likely that some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites but not all.

I will add 0-4 units of Kardakes Hoplites (in 1200 point army) to the 419-329 BC Persian list in the next full update.

Paul Adaway has kindly supplied the modded unit and textures.

Thank you sir and the generous Mr.Paul, I think maybe should add several more of them(in 2000 point army), 4 units(roughly two thousand men)are a bit low for the Achaemenid army.

The lists scale to the size of the battle. 6 at 2000 points (which is what it is set at) gives 4 at 1200 points.

And the number of units in an army list are supposed to scale to the proportion of the units in a historical army, not the absolute numbers.

And I am assuming that only some of the Kardakes were equipped as hoplites, not all of them.

And which type of Kardakes do you think were been recorded on the Seleucid side in the battle of Raphia(and add to the corresponding army list), Takabara foot or Persian-style hoplites? I think perhaps need 2 units(a thousand men according to the Polybius). Also should adjust the Epic Issus(where some of the sources claimed some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites from)and Raphia scenarios to add the appropriate units.

I think it is extremely unlikely that they would have appeared as hoplites at Raphia, since hoplites were long obsolete (except in the western Mediterranean) by 217 BC.

I am not totally averse to adding a couple of units of Takabara (at 2000 points) to all Seleucid lists prior to 205 BC on the grounds that they surely would not magically reappear at Raphia if they had not existed since the start of the Seleucid kingdom.

(Paul, do you have any thoughts on the matter?)

[rbodleyscott]

Also the text of Polybios actually says: "At the extreme point of the left wing he placed two thousand cavalry under the command of Themison; by their side Cardacian and Lydian javelin-men"

So definitely not hoplites.

[Dux Limitis]

See the discussion in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head,

It seems likely that some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites but not all.

I will add 0-4 units of Kardakes Hoplites (in 1200 point army) to the 419-329 BC Persian list in the next full update.

Paul Adaway has kindly supplied the modded unit and textures.

Thank you sir and the generous Mr.Paul, I think maybe should add several more of them(in 2000 point army), 4 units(roughly two thousand men)are a bit low for the Achaemenid army.

The lists scale to the size of the battle. 6 at 2000 points (which is what it is set at) gives 4 at 1200 points.

And the number of units in an army list are supposed to scale to the proportion of the units in a historical army, not the absolute numbers.

And I am assuming that only some of the Kardakes were equipped as hoplites, not all of them.

And which type of Kardakes do you think were been recorded on the Seleucid side in the battle of Raphia(and add to the corresponding army list), Takabara foot or Persian-style hoplites? I think perhaps need 2 units(a thousand men according to the Polybius). Also should adjust the Epic Issus(where some of the sources claimed some of the Kardakes were armed as hoplites from)and Raphia scenarios to add the appropriate units.

I think it is extremely unlikely that they would have appeared as hoplites at Raphia, since hoplites were long obsolete (except in the western Mediterranean) by 217 BC.

I am not totally averse to adding a couple of units of Takabara (at 2000 points) to all Seleucid lists prior to 205 BC on the grounds that they surely would not magically reappear at Raphia if they had not existed since the start of the Seleucid kingdom.

(Paul, do you have any thoughts on the matter?)

Yes, I think 6 at 2000 points is enough, and I do know not all of them were equipped as hoplites, the records clearly indicated that. Those who were not armed like hoplites had already been represented as the takabara foot.

I also think they were not likely armed like hoplites in the battle of Raphia, even in the Indo-Greek nations, the fringe of the Hellenistic world, the locals were armed as thyreophoroi and phalangites in this period.

But I think we can agree that the Issus scenario needs a little adjustment, to add some Persian-style hoplites on the flanks of the Greek mercenary hoplites(according to records).

[rbodleyscott]

But I think we can agree that the Issus scenario needs a little adjustment, to add some Persian-style hoplites on the flanks of the Greek mercenary hoplites(according to records).

Unfortunateley we cannot undertake to tweak the Epic Battles when new evidence/interpretations come to light. Altering them is not a simple matter of replacing units, the new version would need to be fully tested, re-encrypted etc. Life is simply too short, and other things have higher priority.

It is a game, not a thesis.

If anyone thinks they can produce a more realistic version of a scenario, they are welcome to supply it as a mod, and it can be included for in-game download.

[Dux Limitis]

Also the text of Polybios actually says: "At the extreme point of the left wing he placed two thousand cavalry under the command of Themison; by their side Cardacian and Lydian javelin-men"

Then I think they can be represented by the irregular foot and the light javalinmen in the Seleucid 300-206 BC list, solved.

[rbodleyscott]

Also the text of Polybios actually says: "At the extreme point of the left wing he placed two thousand cavalry under the command of Themison; by their side Cardacian and Lydian javelin-men"

Then I think they can be represented by the [irregular foot and the] light javalinmen in the Seleucid 300-206 BC list, solved.

Yes, and that is what was intended in the existing list. It does not appear to have any Irregular Foot, which is probably an oversight as the preceding and following lists do. I will look into it.

[Dux Limitis]

But I think we can agree that the Issus scenario needs a little adjustment, to add some Persian-style hoplites on the flanks of the Greek mercenary hoplites(according to records).

Life is simply too short, and other things have higher priority.

It is a game, not a thesis.

Cheers to your health and thank you for bringing us such an amazing experience, I always treat tabletop wargames as simulations rather than simple games(like Total War titles).

[Dux Limitis]

Also the text of Polybios actually says: "At the extreme point of the left wing he placed two thousand cavalry under the command of Themison; by their side Cardacian and Lydian javelin-men"

Then I think they can be represented by the [irregular foot and the] light javalinmen in the Seleucid 300-206 BC list, solved.

Yes, and that is what was intended in the existing list. It does not appear to have any Irregular Foot, which is probably an oversight as the preceding and following lists do. I will look into it.

Perhaps some of the irregular foot in the Seleucid list should use the Iranian textures to represent the Kardakes better? I've seen those in the Scythian lists.

[gribol]

But no one really knows who these mythical "Kardakes" were

[rbodleyscott]

But no one really knows who these mythical "Kardakes" were

At Raphia, you mean? I agree. I am adding the usual Irregular Foot unit to represent any that weren't skirmishing.

[gribol]

But no one really knows who these mythical "Kardakes" were

At Raphia, you mean? I agree. I am adding the usual Irregular Foot unit to represent any that weren't skirmishing.

I was thinking more about these Achaemenid "Kardakes".
EDIT: I have not heard of the Seleucid "Kardakes" and therefore I do not comment on this topic.

[rbodleyscott]

But no one really knows who these mythical "Kardakes" were

At Raphia, you mean? I agree. I am adding the usual Irregular Foot unit to represent any that weren't skirmishing.

I was thinking more about these Achaemenid "Kardakes".
EDIT: I have not heard of the Seleucid "Kardakes" and therefore I do not comment on this topic.

Nothing mythical about "Kardakes", the discussion is on how they fought.

[gribol]

Nothing mythical about "Kardakes", the discussion is on how they fought.

The problem is that in several studies I read, each one presented a different vision of their fighting style and weapons.
I have never seen a clear statement that would allow them to be classified as hoplites, phalanxes, peltasts, archers or any other type of infantry.
They existed - which is confirmed. And that's all that can be said about them as a certainty.

[rbodleyscott]

Nothing mythical about "Kardakes", the discussion is on how they fought.

The problem is that in several studies I read, each one presented a different vision of their fighting style and weapons.
I have never seen a clear statement that would allow them to be classified as hoplites, phalanxes, peltasts, archers or any other type of infantry.
They existed - which is confirmed. And that's all that can be said about them as a certainty.

Yep

[Dux Limitis]

Nothing mythical about "Kardakes", the discussion is on how they fought.

The problem is that in several studies I read, each one presented a different vision of their fighting style and weapons.

That's the reason why we'll have both, one is based on Strabo(which clearly described them like peltasts)and another is based on the Arrian and Nepos(noted they were armed like hoplites, Arrian's writing was based on eyewitnesses who participated in the battle of Issus). I can safely say according to the currently available sources we can figure out the majority of Achaemenid kardakes were armed like peltasts, and an unknown proportion of them were armed like hoplites at least in the battle of Issus.

[Dux Limitis]

At Raphia, you mean? I agree. I am adding the usual Irregular Foot unit to represent any that weren't skirmishing.

I was thinking more about these Achaemenid "Kardakes".
EDIT: I have not heard of the Seleucid "Kardakes" and therefore I do not comment on this topic.

Nothing mythical about "Kardakes", the discussion is on how they fought.

According to Strabos' record, should the takabara foot have the full swordsmen capability? It seems like they were trained to use their weapons.

[fogman]

A game designers' view involving the aforementioned Duncan Head:

https://www.ancientbattles.com/WAB_Pers ... rdakes.htm