What the title says.
Hopefully something robust and straightforward, with emphasis on playability?
What is a good rules set for ancient miniatures?
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dithyrambos
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
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Might I reccomend De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA for short). It is a fast paced game, that is relatively simple and easy to play, and is a lot of fun. It is for two players, and each player has 12 stands of soldiers in his army. When 1/3 of the army (4 stands) is destroyed, the army breaks, and the other player is the winner. It is a really fun game, and I say this from experience.
But personally, I prefer De Bellis Multitudinis (DBM for short), which is an expanded version of DBA. DBM is a minimum of 2 players, but can have a maximum of 8 players. Unlike DBA, where each army is 12 stands, no more, no less, in DBM, armies are assembled differently. The typical game is either 300 points or 350 points, though some people who wish for truly epic battles will play with 500 points. Each stand has a points value based on its type (such as Spears or Light Horse), its Regularity (Regular or Irregular), and its quality (such as ordinary or superior). Each different army (such as Alexandrian Macedonian or Feudal English) has a maximum number of each type of unit available to it. These maxima represent the fact that no army was comprised entirely of English Knights or Companion Cavalry. Also, some units have a minimum number of stands, which represent that no army of that culture (i.e. Fuedal English or Alexandrian Macedonian) would go into battle without a certain number of these troops.
Armies are typically broken down into 2 - 4 commands, and a player may control one or more of these commands. The leader of the army (assuming that there are two or more players in a particular army) assigns the stands to a command. When 1/3 of the command's stands are killed, the command breaks. An army will break when 1/2 of its total number is either dead or broken. So if you have 3 commands, and each one is roughly 1/3 of your army, your opponent will need to break two of your commands to break your army and win the game.
The different types of units are as follows:
Horde (Hd), very weak units that are literally "cannon fodder".
Spear (Sp), very good all around infantry.
Pike (Pk), better than Sp, but harder to maneuver.
Blade (Bd), extremely good vs other infantry units, not so good vs mounted units.
Auxilia (Ax), very good vs anything in rough terrain, but typlically vulnerable to Bd and mounted units in the open.
Warband (Wb), similar to Ax, though they do not suffer as badly vs Bd.
Psiloi (Ps), light skirmishers, that are really a weaker version of Ax, except that unlike Ax, Ps recieve a bonus when fighting Elephants.
Bow (Bw), the basic ranged unit, not the best in hand-to-hand combat, but not too bad either.
Cavalry (Cav), the basic mounted unit, good against most infantry, other than Sp.
Knights (Kn), the heavy cavalry that have advantages when fighting most infantry.
Light Horse (LH), these guys aren't very good at hand-to-hand combat, except vs Elephants. However, they are usefull for hitting your enemy's camp.
Elephants (El), just that. Very good vs almost all units save for Ps and LH.
War Wagons (WWg), very powerful, slow-moving units that both shoot, and devastate in hand-to-hand.
Artillery (Art), advanced ranged unit, more firepower than Bw, but also far more expensive in points.
The different Regularity levels are:
Regular (Reg), these are professional units and find movement much easier, especially difficult maneuvers.
Irregular (Irr), these are usually not professional, but alway undisciplined. They find difficult maneuvers harder to do, and sometimes they get impetuous.
The different quality levels are:
Superior (S), these are the best of the best, they get a special advantage in combat.
Ordinary (O), these are your typical troops, and they neither recieve bonuses nor penalties in combat.
Inferior (I), these are less than average troops, and they recieve a penalty in combat.
Exception (X), these units are neither S, O, nor I, but have special rules depending on race, type, regularity, etc.
An example of how these fit together is this:
Spartiates - Reg Sp (S)
In other words:
The Spartiates are professional soldiery, with heavy training and harsh discipline, and find maneuvering easy.
Their primary weapon is the spear, so they are natually classed as Sp.
They are some of the elite hoplites, so their quality is Superior.
Being Regular means that they can maneuver more easily, and more often in a turn.
Being Spear means that they are good all around troops, and that they can "quick kill" cavalry.
Being Superior means that in the case of a tie in a combat round, they win. Also, if they lose a combat round by 1, then the round is considered a tie and they do not lose.
Combat works like this:
When two hostile units are in contact with each other, they each roll 1 die to see who wins the combat. Each unit's type adds a modifier to the die roll. For example, Spear add 4 to their die roll when fighting cavalry and blade. Blade add 5 to their die roll when fighting infantry, such as Spear or Bow. Let us pretend that a stand of Spartiates, Reg Sp (S), is in combat with a stand of Roman Hastati, Reg Bd (O).
Each player rolls his die. The Spartiates roll a 3, add their modifier and their score is 7. The Hastati roll a 2, add their modifier and their score is also 7. But the Spartiates are Superior, which adds 1 more to their score, so now they are an 8 vs the Hastati's 7. The Hastati are beaten, and withdraw. A unit is only killed if its score is doubled (except in certain cases, where one type can quick kill another, like Ps and LH vs El. Since Ps quick kill El, they will kill the El even if the Ps wins by 1.)
There is so much more to this game, but I've been talking for too long already. If you are really interested in hearing more before you buy the rule book, PM me.
Oh, one more thing, in order to set up an army, you'll need an army lists book, which tells what types of units a nation can have, and the minima and maxima of those units, as well as their point value.
Book 1 covers 3000 B.C. - 500 B.C.
Book 2 covers 500 B.C. - A.D. 476 (I think, it is somewhere in the 400s)
Book 3 covers A.D. 476 - A.D. 1070 (again, I think this is the date. It is after 1066 and before 1095, I know that)
Book 4 covers A.D. 1070 - A.D. 1500
But personally, I prefer De Bellis Multitudinis (DBM for short), which is an expanded version of DBA. DBM is a minimum of 2 players, but can have a maximum of 8 players. Unlike DBA, where each army is 12 stands, no more, no less, in DBM, armies are assembled differently. The typical game is either 300 points or 350 points, though some people who wish for truly epic battles will play with 500 points. Each stand has a points value based on its type (such as Spears or Light Horse), its Regularity (Regular or Irregular), and its quality (such as ordinary or superior). Each different army (such as Alexandrian Macedonian or Feudal English) has a maximum number of each type of unit available to it. These maxima represent the fact that no army was comprised entirely of English Knights or Companion Cavalry. Also, some units have a minimum number of stands, which represent that no army of that culture (i.e. Fuedal English or Alexandrian Macedonian) would go into battle without a certain number of these troops.
Armies are typically broken down into 2 - 4 commands, and a player may control one or more of these commands. The leader of the army (assuming that there are two or more players in a particular army) assigns the stands to a command. When 1/3 of the command's stands are killed, the command breaks. An army will break when 1/2 of its total number is either dead or broken. So if you have 3 commands, and each one is roughly 1/3 of your army, your opponent will need to break two of your commands to break your army and win the game.
The different types of units are as follows:
Horde (Hd), very weak units that are literally "cannon fodder".
Spear (Sp), very good all around infantry.
Pike (Pk), better than Sp, but harder to maneuver.
Blade (Bd), extremely good vs other infantry units, not so good vs mounted units.
Auxilia (Ax), very good vs anything in rough terrain, but typlically vulnerable to Bd and mounted units in the open.
Warband (Wb), similar to Ax, though they do not suffer as badly vs Bd.
Psiloi (Ps), light skirmishers, that are really a weaker version of Ax, except that unlike Ax, Ps recieve a bonus when fighting Elephants.
Bow (Bw), the basic ranged unit, not the best in hand-to-hand combat, but not too bad either.
Cavalry (Cav), the basic mounted unit, good against most infantry, other than Sp.
Knights (Kn), the heavy cavalry that have advantages when fighting most infantry.
Light Horse (LH), these guys aren't very good at hand-to-hand combat, except vs Elephants. However, they are usefull for hitting your enemy's camp.
Elephants (El), just that. Very good vs almost all units save for Ps and LH.
War Wagons (WWg), very powerful, slow-moving units that both shoot, and devastate in hand-to-hand.
Artillery (Art), advanced ranged unit, more firepower than Bw, but also far more expensive in points.
The different Regularity levels are:
Regular (Reg), these are professional units and find movement much easier, especially difficult maneuvers.
Irregular (Irr), these are usually not professional, but alway undisciplined. They find difficult maneuvers harder to do, and sometimes they get impetuous.
The different quality levels are:
Superior (S), these are the best of the best, they get a special advantage in combat.
Ordinary (O), these are your typical troops, and they neither recieve bonuses nor penalties in combat.
Inferior (I), these are less than average troops, and they recieve a penalty in combat.
Exception (X), these units are neither S, O, nor I, but have special rules depending on race, type, regularity, etc.
An example of how these fit together is this:
Spartiates - Reg Sp (S)
In other words:
The Spartiates are professional soldiery, with heavy training and harsh discipline, and find maneuvering easy.
Their primary weapon is the spear, so they are natually classed as Sp.
They are some of the elite hoplites, so their quality is Superior.
Being Regular means that they can maneuver more easily, and more often in a turn.
Being Spear means that they are good all around troops, and that they can "quick kill" cavalry.
Being Superior means that in the case of a tie in a combat round, they win. Also, if they lose a combat round by 1, then the round is considered a tie and they do not lose.
Combat works like this:
When two hostile units are in contact with each other, they each roll 1 die to see who wins the combat. Each unit's type adds a modifier to the die roll. For example, Spear add 4 to their die roll when fighting cavalry and blade. Blade add 5 to their die roll when fighting infantry, such as Spear or Bow. Let us pretend that a stand of Spartiates, Reg Sp (S), is in combat with a stand of Roman Hastati, Reg Bd (O).
Each player rolls his die. The Spartiates roll a 3, add their modifier and their score is 7. The Hastati roll a 2, add their modifier and their score is also 7. But the Spartiates are Superior, which adds 1 more to their score, so now they are an 8 vs the Hastati's 7. The Hastati are beaten, and withdraw. A unit is only killed if its score is doubled (except in certain cases, where one type can quick kill another, like Ps and LH vs El. Since Ps quick kill El, they will kill the El even if the Ps wins by 1.)
There is so much more to this game, but I've been talking for too long already. If you are really interested in hearing more before you buy the rule book, PM me.
Oh, one more thing, in order to set up an army, you'll need an army lists book, which tells what types of units a nation can have, and the minima and maxima of those units, as well as their point value.
Book 1 covers 3000 B.C. - 500 B.C.
Book 2 covers 500 B.C. - A.D. 476 (I think, it is somewhere in the 400s)
Book 3 covers A.D. 476 - A.D. 1070 (again, I think this is the date. It is after 1066 and before 1095, I know that)
Book 4 covers A.D. 1070 - A.D. 1500
"Now Dithyrambos, the Thespian captain... by trade an architect and by no means a professional soldier, had already distinguished himself with such magnificent courage throughout the day..." From Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire
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duncan
- Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
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It looks VERY interesting. I've been thinking about starting with wargames lately ( 
), but I can't find any other than Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. I started Warhammer 40k and Fantasy armies, but I find this more appealing. Thanks a lot, Dithyrambos. Any useful internet links? Where can I get those rulebooks and miniatures in Europe?
), but I can't find any other than Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. I started Warhammer 40k and Fantasy armies, but I find this more appealing. Thanks a lot, Dithyrambos. Any useful internet links? Where can I get those rulebooks and miniatures in Europe?"The Art Of War: Fantasy" supporter!
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13558
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
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honvedseg
- Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: Reading, PA, USA
Miniature Wargames Rules
There are a number of rules sets out there besides the DBA/DBM/DBR series. A few noteable examples are: Classical Hack, Armati/Advanced Armati, Might of Arms, Ancient/Medieval Warfare, Warrior, and the quirky WH Ancient Battles.
Each has its own strong and weak points, the fast-play DBx series (version 9 or 10?) having a paper/rock/scissors feel, the venerable old Classical Hack rules having units run away and come back over and over, Armati having a rigid and inflexible command system, WHAB having "racial advantages" that in some cases far outweigh the actual fighting abilities of the units, etc. Some rules sets are designed for quick tournament play, with a battle resolved in under an hour, while others may take most of a day to play out. It may take a few tries to find a rules set that suits your game group's needs and interests.
Check out the Historical Miniature Gamers Society in the US for links to miniatures groups and sites at hmgs.org (not .com), as well as info on historical miniatures conventions.
Each has its own strong and weak points, the fast-play DBx series (version 9 or 10?) having a paper/rock/scissors feel, the venerable old Classical Hack rules having units run away and come back over and over, Armati having a rigid and inflexible command system, WHAB having "racial advantages" that in some cases far outweigh the actual fighting abilities of the units, etc. Some rules sets are designed for quick tournament play, with a battle resolved in under an hour, while others may take most of a day to play out. It may take a few tries to find a rules set that suits your game group's needs and interests.
Check out the Historical Miniature Gamers Society in the US for links to miniatures groups and sites at hmgs.org (not .com), as well as info on historical miniatures conventions.
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Redpossum
- Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
- Posts: 1814
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:09 am
- Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Contact:
Miniatures vendors
Miniatures Vendors
Eureka Miniatures - Some cool stuff, some silly stuff...
Hat Industrie - Achtung, baby!
Small Armies - Eh, a geocities site, be warned...
Castaway Arts - Another site with a plethora of cool stuff
The Foundry - Another one
Shadowforge As discussed elsewhere. Not safe to view at work. My personal favorite
General Info
Society of Ancients - All sorts of cool info here.
Acrylicos Vallejo - Makers of acrylic paints for miniatures. They do not sell direct, but their site does have beautiful palettes of their colors, which most vendor sites do not.
Eureka Miniatures - Some cool stuff, some silly stuff...
Hat Industrie - Achtung, baby!
Small Armies - Eh, a geocities site, be warned...
Castaway Arts - Another site with a plethora of cool stuff
The Foundry - Another one
Shadowforge As discussed elsewhere. Not safe to view at work. My personal favorite
General Info
Society of Ancients - All sorts of cool info here.
Acrylicos Vallejo - Makers of acrylic paints for miniatures. They do not sell direct, but their site does have beautiful palettes of their colors, which most vendor sites do not.
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dithyrambos
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:01 am
- Location: Thermopylae, 480 B.C.
Old Glory is the only company I use, but there are others for getting DBM/DBA/DBR pieces. I can't think of their names right now, although IIRC, Essex is one of the European vendors.
Old Glory (this website if you want 15mm pieces)
I'm not sure exatcly where to buy the rules and army lists, mine were given to me by a friend.
DBM/DBA/DBR is way more fun than Warhammer. I am a convert from the latter. I had assembled two Warhammer Fantasy armies and one 40k army, and now they are collecting dust. I am currently working on my first DBM army, which is the Third Crusade, specifically, Richard Coeur d'Leon's army, along with some Hospitallers and Templars. Next I am planning on making a Judaean army. I like making armies few people think to do. I'm still relatively new, so maybe Iain would be able to give some examples of good armies for new players to use.
Also, there is a new rule set, called DBMM (which, if I'm not mistaken, stands for De Bellis Militum Magistrorum). But DBMM is not as popular, apparently because it is far more complex than DBM. I cannot say so from experience, as I have not played DBMM.
Another game I would reccomend, for those who are interested in the British Colonial Era (post-American, late 19th century), is The Sword and the Flame. I played it and had a blast. It is on a smaller scale than the De Bellis series, as it deals in individual soldiers, rather than stands representing hundreds of men each.
@ possum and duncan - You're welcome.
@ Iainmcniel - Which army(ies) do you have for DBM?
Old Glory (this website if you want 15mm pieces)
I'm not sure exatcly where to buy the rules and army lists, mine were given to me by a friend.
DBM/DBA/DBR is way more fun than Warhammer. I am a convert from the latter. I had assembled two Warhammer Fantasy armies and one 40k army, and now they are collecting dust. I am currently working on my first DBM army, which is the Third Crusade, specifically, Richard Coeur d'Leon's army, along with some Hospitallers and Templars. Next I am planning on making a Judaean army. I like making armies few people think to do. I'm still relatively new, so maybe Iain would be able to give some examples of good armies for new players to use.
Also, there is a new rule set, called DBMM (which, if I'm not mistaken, stands for De Bellis Militum Magistrorum). But DBMM is not as popular, apparently because it is far more complex than DBM. I cannot say so from experience, as I have not played DBMM.
Another game I would reccomend, for those who are interested in the British Colonial Era (post-American, late 19th century), is The Sword and the Flame. I played it and had a blast. It is on a smaller scale than the De Bellis series, as it deals in individual soldiers, rather than stands representing hundreds of men each.
@ possum and duncan - You're welcome.
@ Iainmcniel - Which army(ies) do you have for DBM?
"Now Dithyrambos, the Thespian captain... by trade an architect and by no means a professional soldier, had already distinguished himself with such magnificent courage throughout the day..." From Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire
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duncan
- Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
- Posts: 436
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:08 am
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Unfortunately, they don't ship outside of US, but their byzantine models are amazing!!! I would love to fight some norman army with those kataprhaktos!!!!dithyrambos wrote:Old Glory is the only company I use
Anyway, I'm having trouble painting my ultramarines W40k army, so I guess this 15 mm stuff is not fot me
Thanks, Possum and honvedseg, for the links
EDIT: i think this is what you meant...http://www.oldgloryuk.com/
"The Art Of War: Fantasy" supporter!
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
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- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
In DBM I used to use Patrician Roman, but after a while it got cloned & many people tried to pick anti Patrician Roman armies. The rules tweaks discourage mobile armies and turned it into a slug fest which required you to use heavy infantry armies and also removed a lot of the possible strategy in my opinion, one of teh reasons teh rules are slowly dying.
Now you need something like Russ or Medieval Portuguese. They have a lot of heavy punch and are not too narrow.
Now you need something like Russ or Medieval Portuguese. They have a lot of heavy punch and are not too narrow.
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dithyrambos
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:01 am
- Location: Thermopylae, 480 B.C.
There is still that element of strategy in DBA, though. It may be on a far smaller scale, but in DBA you can't afford a slug fest (Especially when playing as Early Samurai and fighting Fuedal Englishiainmcneil wrote:In DBM I used to use Patrician Roman, but after a while it got cloned & many people tried to pick anti Patrician Roman armies. The rules tweaks discourage mobile armies and turned it into a slug fest which required you to use heavy infantry armies and also removed a lot of the possible strategy in my opinion, one of teh reasons teh rules are slowly dying.
Now you need something like Russ or Medieval Portuguese. They have a lot of heavy punch and are not too narrow.
)"Now Dithyrambos, the Thespian captain... by trade an architect and by no means a professional soldier, had already distinguished himself with such magnificent courage throughout the day..." From Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire
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Redpossum
- Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
- Posts: 1814
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:09 am
- Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Contact:
Castaway Arts sells The Sword & The Flame, as well as a dozen or so variants of it.
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honvedseg
- Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: Reading, PA, USA
MIniatures rules and figures
Here is the most comprehensive alphabetical list of manufacturers of miniatures and rules that I've found yet. It even lists companies that have been gone for years, along with available info on them.
http://theminiaturespage.com/man/sort/a
This one should keep you busy for a LONG time.
BTW - I have armies in both 15mm and 25/28mm scales, including 15mm Imperial Romans, 28mm Assyrians, two different 15mm Greek factions, etc.
http://theminiaturespage.com/man/sort/a
This one should keep you busy for a LONG time.
BTW - I have armies in both 15mm and 25/28mm scales, including 15mm Imperial Romans, 28mm Assyrians, two different 15mm Greek factions, etc.
Take a look on the BHGS web site to get a feel for miniatures wargaming in the UK
WWW.bhgs.co.uk
Regards
JDM
WWW.bhgs.co.uk
Regards
JDM
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IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
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