How many commander trait points do you consider the ideal?

[CptJackSparrow1993]

In light of the fact that I'm wanting to take another run at the game, I wanted to ask the community about the number of commander trait points which they feel is the ideal average for starting. I like the commander trait system but feel that just 2 points at the beginning is too limited and I have concluded that at least 5 points seems like a more ideal number to begin with - enough to get a decent collection of traits without needing to dip too far into the negative traits to get a few good ones. But what are your guys' thoughts on this?

[Bee1976]

Well it depends on the difficulty lvl, the challenges you pick (if you pick some) and of course your personel experience with the game and combat system. Oh and of course whats your plan is for the playthrough.

2 points is completly fine, there are some "free" neg traits you can pick early on, for example denied artillery or slow modernization. But the best answer i can give is:

try it out and pick as many points as you want and what feels most fun for you.

[DefiantXYX]

What Bee1976 said...and what are you gonna play? Vanilla campaign or do you start the DLCs?

I dont like the commander system very much because it is not very well balanced. You can get a lot of free points by picking easy traits but 80% of the negativ traits are just a pain in the ass. I prefer settings like David vs Goliath to make the game harder or more interesting.
The other question is what positive traits do you want to pick. There are also some senseless traits.

[adiekmann]

Everyone has their own idea of what they value and how they like to play.

For me, this is typical (though it varies some depending on which DLC/year I am in):

Negative Traits (9):

Denied Artillery
Slow Modernization
Trench Slog

Positive Traits:

Panzer General (Never in SCW)
Infantry General (Never in SCW)
Killer Team (If you love heroes, no brainer. If you don't, then never.)
Anti-Air Veteran (essential for early war, particularly SCW, but I like if for every DLC with possible exception of 1941)
Force Concentration (not for early war)

For SCW, which is a world onto itself, I usually select just Trophies, Deadly Grasp, Flexible Command, and AA Veteran)

[DefiantXYX]

Anti-Air Veteran (essential for early war, particularly SCW, but I like if for every DLC with possible exception of 1941)
Force Concentration (not for early war)

I am always wondering why so many guys pick AA-Veretan. If you rely on AA guns that always slows you down, imo fighters are far better to protect your stuff.
And most of the time the AI is wasting all planes in the first turns so you dont need AA guns and the trait any longer.
Later in the war when your AA guns are experienced and you have some good heroes the trait is even more obsolet.
But maybe I will give it a try in the future

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Anti-Air Veteran (essential for early war, particularly SCW, but I like if for every DLC with possible exception of 1941)
Force Concentration (not for early war)

I am always wondering why so many guys pick AA-Veretan. If you rely on AA guns that always slows you down, imo fighters are far better to protect your stuff.
And most of the time the AI is wasting all planes in the first turns so you dont need AA guns and the trait any longer.
Later in the war when your AA guns are experienced and you have some good heroes the trait is even more obsolet.
But maybe I will give it a try in the future

Because it removes the need of multiple AA layer to protect you from all kind of air threats (small LAA gun against fighter and tactical, heavy AA against strategic) , 88 flak kills everything instantly and doubles as the best AT until maybe 1944, which saves you much more slots for other things.

A camouflaged 88 can neutralize as many enemy aircraft in one turn as its ammo allows, with a range advantage it is much easier to achieve it with heavy guns.
Max sight for non-recon aircraft is 2, so when they see your small AA they can give up the attack, but there is no way they can spot a range 3 AA, so heavy AA just dominates the field with it and murders everything.

[Grondel]

Because it removes the need of multiple AA layer to protect you from all kind of air threats (small LAA gun against fighter and tactical, heavy AA against strategic) , 88 flak kills everything instantly and doubles as the best AT until maybe 1944, which saves you much more slots for other things.

A camouflaged 88 can neutralize as many enemy aircraft in one turn as its ammo allows, with a range advantage it is much easier to achieve it with heavy guns.
Max sight for non-recon aircraft is 2, so when they see your small AA they can give up the attack, but there is no way they can spot a range 3 AA, so heavy AA just dominates the field with it and murders everything.

this is exactly the reason why i don´t use certain traits like AA-Veteran, meticilous planning, agressive deploy.
they just ruin the game for me by making it way to easy/one minded. u don´t have to think anymore, just put some 8.8 on hills around ur force and ur set. turn of the brain....


sers,l
Thomas

[VirgilInTheSKY]

this is exactly the reason why i don´t use certain traits like AA-Veteran, meticilous planning, agressive deploy.
they just ruin the game for me by making it way to easy/one minded. u don´t have to think anymore, just put some 8.8 on hills around ur force and ur set. turn of the brain....


sers,l
Thomas

Indeed, these traits just change part of the gameplay mechanics and render some units useless.

[Panzer73]

It depends on your play style and the campaign as stated by others. These days I use few general traits. Currently, for my experienced core in AO'45 I have Panzer General, Infantry General, Perimeter Control and Master of Blitzkrieg as my positives and Slow Modernization and Poor Maintenance as my negatives.

- In the past I used Aggressive Deployment for a long time, but I've given it up.

- I've never used AA Veteran and I did just fine.

- For starting at SCW I always pick Killer Team. I don't use it for the latter DLCs, as I'll have too many heroes eventually...

- No Overstrength and/or Slow Modernization are negative traits I use a lot. In the 1944 & 1945 DLCs I've dropped the No Overstrength, as there are far too many overpowered enemy units

- I like Perimeter Control and Master of Blitzkrieg and always use them.

- Insufficient Supply is a negative trait that I take often. The 1941 Campaign especially becomes more challenging with it.

- I'll try to take Trophies of War in SCW and AO'39. Captured equipment tends to be better in these DLCs and the prestige gain early on is extremely helpful. I have used it with a couple of my cores into AO'41.

- I tend to use both Force Dispersion (-2) and Force Concentration (+1) in SCW and possibly AO'39, as there are too few heroes at this time anyway. This allows me to take Deadly Grasp, which makes capturing enemy units easier.

[adiekmann]

Anti-Air Veteran (essential for early war, particularly SCW, but I like if for every DLC with possible exception of 1941)
Force Concentration (not for early war)

I am always wondering why so many guys pick AA-Veretan. If you rely on AA guns that always slows you down, imo fighters are far better to protect your stuff.
And most of the time the AI is wasting all planes in the first turns so you dont need AA guns and the trait any longer.
Later in the war when your AA guns are experienced and you have some good heroes the trait is even more obsolet.
But maybe I will give it a try in the future

Because it removes the need of multiple AA layer to protect you from all kind of air threats (small LAA gun against fighter and tactical, heavy AA against strategic) , 88 flak kills everything instantly and doubles as the best AT until maybe 1944, which saves you much more slots for other things.

A camouflaged 88 can neutralize as many enemy aircraft in one turn as its ammo allows, with a range advantage it is much easier to achieve it with heavy guns.
Max sight for non-recon aircraft is 2, so when they see your small AA they can give up the attack, but there is no way they can spot a range 3 AA, so heavy AA just dominates the field with it and murders everything.

Well, yes, most everything you all said is true, but...

First of all, I do not find that they slow me down at all, so I really don't understand that comment whatsoever.

Most of my comments below are geared for the newer/inexperienced player, not you guys. You already know most of what I say below.

Early war, your fighters are weak and gain experience slowly. I do use my fighters as much as I can to build their experience, but to offset the loss of prestige in Spain (but later too) for instance, I use them to soften up the enemy fighters when possible before I finish them off with my fighters. Depending on the year, this practice continues for the rest of the war. It also serves as a deterrent to protect pricy assets like heavy artillery. Without it, even with a few stars, you are still likely to take a 1-2 str loss when a tac bomber strikes your artillery or other sensitive and expensive units and that is annoying. You can protect with your fighters, yes, but when they are being aggressive and taking out enemy aircraft or escorting my bombers, they are not protecting your ground units.

Later, once they have some stars, yes, they can be murderous with AA Veteran. I understand why some of you find it too cheesy but to each their own. It falls into the same category of "Heroes/Steamroller/etc. are too overpowered." Some find these and others aspects of the game "unbalancing" and Grondel you are addressing those concerns according to your own beliefs with your mods. It really helps with later years when the Allied AF really becomes a force to deal with. Later, when fighter aircraft become slot heavy, it is an effective offset to also deploy much cheaper AA units. So it's also a matter of deployment consideration. I also use my 8.8 FlaK gun(s) extensively in the AT role in the early DLCs as well. My core usually has a balance of small caliber and 88 AA units. In all, I usually only have 3-4 AA units max ever with 6-8 fighters. This is if I begin my core early like Spain or '39.

In '41, once you get to Barbarossa, there are so few Soviet aircraft in many of the scenarios that you hardly even need to deploy your aircraft. I do miss it (if I don't have it) in the Moscow map though. Those 2x rapid fire heroes that you can get in '42 I also like to put on AT units which I also use extensively. I won't repeat any more facts that Virgil or others have already stated that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Needless to say, all of this is dependent on several things: which scenario, your core and at which DLC your began your campaign, what heroes you've received, your difficulty level, and of course which traits you chose. And for those who complain that the game is too easy, this or that is overpowered, and so forth, there still are tons of ways and combination of ways to make it different which also can affect all of the above. And the Superstar player (ahem, Grondel) who can even beat the AI in the no core MinskOffensive, well, I guess integrating AlphaZero is the only solution to providing them a challenge.

[Grondel]

And the Superstar player (ahem, Grondel) who can even beat the AI in the no core MinskOffensive, well, I guess integrating AlphaZero is the only solution to providing them a challenge.

u are wrong in that one. i guess i could, but i never bothered trying to. i just scip it, since there is nothing to get, besides playing a nice scenario. if i want that i start a scenario, not a campaign.

but i know of several players who managed to beat it with nearly map cleared on high diff settings.

From my point of view the balancing of traits, heros and diff. settings options is way to off for an unexperienced player to make good decisions. no wonder so many threads here ask about "what traits to take?" "What diff should i choose?" etc.

u need several hundred hours of playtime to even understand the impact of most diff. setting.

sers,
Thomas

[adiekmann]

And the Superstar player (ahem, Grondel) who can even beat the AI in the no core MinskOffensive, well, I guess integrating AlphaZero is the only solution to providing them a challenge.

u are wrong in that one. i guess i could, but i never bothered trying to. i just scip it, since there is nothing to get, besides playing a nice scenario. if i want that i start a scenario, not a campaign.

but i know of several players who managed to beat it with nearly map cleared on high diff settings.

From my point of view the balancing of traits, heros and diff. settings options is way to off for an unexperienced player to make good decisions. no wonder so many threads here ask about "what traits to take?" "What diff should i choose?" etc.

u need several hundred hours of playtime to even understand the impact of most diff. setting.

sers,
Thomas

My mistake then. I thought I remembered you reporting that you were able to win that scenario in the Beta, but perhaps I was mistaken or it was actually someone else.

My style of play dates back to the original Panzer General, so like 1995, though the game was released in '94. I had my first (and only) Mac with a dial-up modem in early '95, so that's how I remember. Then I bought a PC with the then brand new Windows 98 when Panzer General 2 was coming out.

So I never really took to the mass encirclements and surrender strategy unless I was up against a particularly tough nut. I just try to kill everything like I did in the previous games including PC1.

I actually haven't played PC2 in several weeks now, but I'll consider your suggestion. Another thing that I haven't tried is the Edmund's limited supply. The reason why I haven't is because of how it applies to all units including infantry class, and I do not field an all pioniere only units either.

[Bee1976]

I want to use this thread to highlight the by far best trait in the game (in my opinion) if you dont play with the power4 trait bundle:

meticilous planning

This trait is so ridicolous overpowered that i recommend picking it as an unexperienced player. you can:

- use the full transport distance, use the 2nd movement point to unmount from transport and then you can still repair, so its possible to skip the agressive deployment trait completly, you can run your unit to safety and repair or brin it to the frontline and repair, this saves tons of time
- move to an enemy unit attack it and move back to safety/your protection layer
- form a perfect frontline with aa umbrrealla and aa/at support every single round

For new players this is great to learn good positioning, for experienced players it turns nearly every mission into a peggy sue cakewalk.I mean on higher difficulty with challenges on, the whole thing is about perfect positioning
-------------------------

Considering AA in lategame, the biggest issue is that the game cant reflect reality and stay fun. THat leads to way to strong AA units even without aa-vet trait. last time i played it the gc mod did it quite well that "sky full of enemy planes" problem germany was facing, but still not the reality.
In the game you can protect your army with a safe and juicy aa umbrella and in most cases your units wont recieve any greater damage. The reality was, even with high anti air protection, enemy air raids were able to cause severe destruction.

im not sure how to solve this ? right now with the actual mechnaice aa is to strong in latewar

[Grondel]

In the game you can protect your army with a safe and juicy aa umbrella and in most cases your units wont recieve any greater damage. The reality was, even with high anti air protection, enemy air raids were able to cause severe destruction.

im not sure how to solve this ? right now with the actual mechnaice aa is to strong in latewar

the "sever destruction" was dealt to cities/industrie complexes and infrastructure. the allies were pretty bad at targeting forces.

sers,
thomas

[Grondel]

I want to use this thread to highlight the by far best trait in the game (in my opinion) if you dont play with the power4 trait bundle:

meticilous planning

i agree that meticilous planning is by far the strongest trait (if u notice that u can manualy unmount units from organic transports when moving max range)
in addition to what u posted:
- it removes the need for selfpropelled AA/AT or artillerie guns

sers,
Thomas

[adiekmann]

I've never even tried it because of the reasons you gave. All positive traits are like cheats of a sort. I think with careful selection, you always gain more advantage than disadvantage from the negative traits you select. Since I've only played the first scenario of AO39, I may actually start over with no additional traits beyond the 2 you automatically begin with like Kerensky says he usually tests with.