Later selucid List- any good

blackbeard · Post by **blackbeard** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:46 pm

Hi guys could you take a look at the list below and give any useful suggestions or comments, this is my first FOG army and im still trying to absorb the rules and army lists.

Companions Cv Armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Argyraspides HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen - 8
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
Thorakitai MF Armoured Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
Archers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 8
Slingers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling - - - 8
Horse archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 4
CinC IC - - - - - - CinC 1
Sub General FC - - - - - - - 1
Sub General FC - - - - - - - 1

I think this works out to roughly 800 Pts.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:01 pm

Have your Argyraspides in BGs of 4.

FCs are not really worth it (unless you're playing 25mm) so make 'em TCs IMO - and you might squeeze in a third.

Poor LF in 8's can be great - you can get twice as many slingers for the same cost as Average

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:48 pm

Definitely ditch the FCs and you probably don't need the IC either. You've got mainly drilled troops and you're not going to suffer much from shooting so why do you need the IC ?
Have 3 or 4 TCs, downgrade the LF (as Nik suggests) and you can probably afford another couple of BGs.

As it is it's very small at only 10BGs. A lot of the starter armies are 10 BGs and they're only 600 pts.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:05 pm

Are there any general thoughts on what the minimum number of pikes it is worthwhile taking? Is two BGs of 8 pikes enough to be useful?

It seems to me that there is a minimum number of pikes that you need to have the critical mass necessary for them to be effective. My feeling is that it's probably 24 elements, either as 3x8 or 2x12, but that's merely my guess based on limited playing with my Alexandrian Macedonians. Most times I've used them I've gone with 32 elements, 1x8 Superior and either 3x8 or 2x12 average. Now it may be that having other HF to extend the battle line reduces the number of pikes you need but I'm not certain. I have't tried running the Macedonians with the HF Off Sp option in place of the superior pikes.

Chris

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:18 pm

*keeps dreaming of the day he runs early Ptolemaic Egyptian*...waves of poor pikes...waves of superior pikes...armoured offensive spear MF...(*hides the points total!!)

MadBanker · Post by **MadBanker** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:54 pm

I would get 4 TC instead of the IC and 2 FC. My thought is also that 2 Bgs of pikes is a bit too few so I would get 3x8 pikes.
Also, only 1 Bg of MF (your thorakitai) is not going to be able to take and hold terrain on his own so I would get a Bg of 6 thracian foot to work in tandem with the thorakitai (or you might do like some players that don't take any MF and just ignore terrain, but I feel this is risky).
I would take the LF as poor to save points and use them for delaying/annoying the enemy (just don't take too many risks with them).
My last comment would be that you don't have enough LH, I would take the Tarentine in addition of the horse archers.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:20 pm

MadBanker wrote:I would get 4 TC instead of the IC and 2 FC. My thought is also that 2 Bgs of pikes is a bit too few so I would get 3x8 pikes.
Also, only 1 Bg of MF (your thorakitai) is not going to be able to take and hold terrain on his own so I would get a Bg of 6 thracian foot to work in tandem with the thorakitai (or you might do like some players that don't take any MF and just ignore terrain, but I feel this is risky).
I would take the LF as poor to save points and use them for delaying/annoying the enemy (just don't take too many risks with them).
My last comment would be that you don't have enough LH, I would take the Tarentine in addition of the horse archers.

And if you are wondering where to get the points for all that, ditch the Companions.

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:20 pm

I think the main difficulty with the later seleucids is figuring out what you are going to win with. They have so many cool toys. Rather than taking all of them, I'd pick the one you want to win with and maximize it.

Like Richard, I don't use the companions.

I don't see much use for one group of 4 LH bowmen.

I'm not convinced about using the roman argyraspids with these guys either. 8 is too many for a group, 6 is great but you only get one group then. I'd like to think there is a way of making use of 2 BGs of 4 of them. A friend uses a LRR list with lots of legionaries and the BG of 4 always seems to get itself in trouble.

I try to win with cataphracts so take 12 of them (6 as an ally), the thorakitai and as many pikes as I can get and use that as the battle line. Then start surrounding them with lights and some cav that can skirmish. And I always use 4 TCs at 800 points. It's a solid list.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:28 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
MadBanker wrote:I would get 4 TC instead of the IC and 2 FC. My thought is also that 2 Bgs of pikes is a bit too few so I would get 3x8 pikes.
Also, only 1 Bg of MF (your thorakitai) is not going to be able to take and hold terrain on his own so I would get a Bg of 6 thracian foot to work in tandem with the thorakitai (or you might do like some players that don't take any MF and just ignore terrain, but I feel this is risky).
I would take the LF as poor to save points and use them for delaying/annoying the enemy (just don't take too many risks with them).
My last comment would be that you don't have enough LH, I would take the Tarentine in addition of the horse archers.
And if you are wondering where to get the points for all that, ditch the Companions.

I haven't used cataphracts enough yet to have a real feel for their effectiveness. Are a BG of 4 Superior,Heavily Armorured,drilled Cataphracts really better than a BG of 4 Elite, Armoured Cavalry for the same cost? Does the extra armor buy more than the better re-rolls and movement rate of the Companions? I would think that having a BG of each rather than 2 BG of cataphracts would provide more tactical flexibility and probably about as much punch in a frontal assault.
(For what it's worth, I find I do tend to use the elite Agema with my Alexandrian Macedonians as well as the superior Companions, and so far I haven't run into the celery stalk elite lancer problem

. )

Chris

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:44 am

batesmotel wrote:I haven't used cataphracts enough yet to have a real feel for their effectiveness. Are a BG of 4 Superior,Heavily Armorured,drilled Cataphracts really better than a BG of 4 Elite, Armoured Cavalry for the same cost? Does the extra armor buy more than the better re-rolls and movement rate of the Companions? I would think that having a BG of each rather than 2 BG of cataphracts would provide more tactical flexibility and probably about as much punch in a frontal assault.

Well you pays your money and you takes your choice. But I would rather have the cataphracts.

My version would look something like this

4 TC
2 x 4 Superior Cataphracts
1 x 4 LH bow
4 x 8 Pikes
2 x 4 "Roman" Argyraspids
1 x 6 Thorakitoi
1 x 6 Thracians
1 x 8 Poor LF archers
2 x 8 Poor LF slingers

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:03 am

Actually, my army was not so different from yours. I like the lancers although most seem not to. They are deployed early and in the center, and then sent off to whereever they are needed - Think Mobile reserve. I would take all generals as TC's though as you want to move first most of the time. My changes are below but from memory, so you might check the point totals (the light foot may have been in 6s, and maybe there was 3 battlegroups of them). If forced to contest terrain the Thorakitai can be backed by the imitation legions.

Companions Cv Armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
Argyraspides HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen - 4
Argyraspides HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen - 4 [/u
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 12
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 12
Thorakitai MF Armoured Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
Archers LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Bow - - - 8
Slingers LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Sling - - - 8
Horse archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 4
LH Unprotected Average Lt Spear Jav ------4
CinC TC - - - - - - CinC 1
Sub General TC - - - - - - - 3

caliban66 · Post by **caliban66** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:57 am

My brother in law´s son (niece?) came with me last tournament I played and he got fascinated by FoG. I tought him the rules and have played with him some games. He asked me what was better: roman legionaries or pikes or elephants? I told him there was an army with included all those troops, and even scythed chariots (he loved them since I used them in my persian army). I wrote for him this list, to be used with a narrow front featuring cats, argyraspydes and elephants, with supporing pikes and fast drilled thureophoroi to avoid flank enveloping. If necesary, Pikes can go to the front instead of elephants or cats (against knights, e.g.).Some slings my run in front of the main line with some tarentines to menace enemy foot skirmishers. Moreless like this:
4 TC
1x6 sup drilled cats
1x4 sup drilled cats
2x8 pikes
1x6 argyráspides in roman-style
2x2 elephants
1x8 thureophoroi
1x2 scythed chariots
2x6 slingers
1x4 tarantines

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:16 am

not doing tournaments just friendly games and so far I have found I can do fine with 3 generals, 1 FC C-IN-C and 2 TC subs.
I have also had surprising luck with the citizen militia, poor spears MF X8, more the merrier on those boys.

Just got some scythed chariots so I will have to see how they work for me.

I like the companions and the cats, I run the companions in 2 bases in column, they can turn on a dime for flank charges or overlaps.

So far I have used the MF archers but I find them to be somewhat dissapointing since they are hard to turn but the bows can force CT's on smaller enemy BG's.

I like elephants good against MF or HF and cav, but they either do well or don't survive.
Just some random thoughts for you adn good luck

AlanYork · Post by **AlanYork** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:57 am

Used Later Seleucids with 4 nellies vs Early Crusader on Monday. My opponent kept his knights well away from my jumbos as expected so I took a chance and ran them at some spearmen. Pretty much a 50:50 fight so I put a general with both elephant units just to be sure to get the edge as it was an important melee.

My dice were slightly worse than average, my friend's were slightly better so he won the hand to hand fighting. Two unlucky death rolls later and both elephant units disappeared, the problem being that if you lose one jumbo the unit automatically breaks meaning you lose the other one too. I subsequently went on to lose the battle.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong here, it's probably about right but elephants are very expensive and extremely brittle. IMO you could spend the points better elsewhere in the majority of battles.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:54 am

AlanYork wrote:Used Later Seleucids with 4 nellies vs Early Crusader on Monday. My opponent kept his knights well away from my jumbos as expected so I took a chance and ran them at some spearmen. Pretty much a 50:50 fight so I put a general with both elephant units just to be sure to get the edge as it was an important melee.

My dice were slightly worse than average, my friend's were slightly better so he won the hand to hand fighting. Two unlucky death rolls later and both elephant units disappeared, the problem being that if you lose one jumbo the unit automatically breaks meaning you lose the other one too. I subsequently went on to lose the battle.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong here, it's probably about right but elephants are very expensive and extremely brittle. IMO you could spend the points better elsewhere in the majority of battles.

I really like the companions but only in 2's they go down early so as not to telegraph too much. If they chase off enemy LH etc not as much is committed. They are at least superior so can support all of my Bgs of 4 (romanised argyraspids cataphracts, elephants etc...

I also like the scythed chariots but played later in the game rather than 1st up. There is usually to omuch manouver early on for them to hit anything juicy.

no need for lots of generals, nor high quality generals as the generals role is to bolster and give cmt pluses.

16 Bgs is handy

6 LF poor javelinmen
8 LF poor slingers
4 LH Tarantines
4 MF Thracians w Hvy Weapon

2 Cv Elite companions
2 Cv Elite companions
2 scythed chariots
6 MF prot Theophoroi (off sp)

4 Cv Gallic (armoured superior lt sp sw)
2 scythed chariots
8 pike average
8 pike average

2 elephants
4 cataphracts
8 pike superior (argyraspids)
4 Impact Foot superior (romanised argyraspids)

if the enemy has weak mounted mine can be massed to included:
4 superior cats
4 superior cav
4 elite cav
4 scythed chariots
2 elephants

if the enemy have a less mobile target I have an 8 wide 4 deep phalanx to see to it.

anthony

stenic · Post by **stenic** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:00 pm

In 25mm I dropped the Romanesque Argyraspids as I found they just ended up as part of the battle line with the pikes; when I tried to get clever with them they got clobbered. It made more sense then to replace with another pike BG and use the spare points elsewhere.

I do have the companions as they are a good counter to enemy LH and can trounce other enemy cavalry. Buddy them up with a BG of elephants and they make a good anti knight force in open tournaments.

The chariots are not worth the points in 25mm and usually reserved our Christmas Special when we just want all the toys on the table!!

Steve P

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:39 pm

only thing I can say about the Argyraspides is that they operate in non-clear terrain better than the pikes will. Haven't tried them myself yet but one day I might give them a run to see. Next experiment will be the scythed chariots and see how they work as replacements for the elephants on the ends of the pike lines.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:01 pm

*starts digging anti-chariot ditches *

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:41 am

deadtorius wrote:only thing I can say about the Argyraspides is that they operate in non-clear terrain better than the pikes will. Haven't tried them myself yet but one day I might give them a run to see. Next experiment will be the scythed chariots and see how they work as replacements for the elephants on the ends of the pike lines.

dont use scythed chariots anywhere as part of a line. Holes will form almost instantly. They cant respond to flank attacks. The best they can do in this role is to hang back to be in a position to intercept flank charges.

anthony

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:00 pm

dont use scythed chariots anywhere as part of a line. Holes will form almost instantly. They cant respond to flank attacks. The best they can do in this role is to hang back to be in a position to intercept flank charges.

Thanks for the good advice expendablecinc.
Just got the chariots so blathergut will have plenty of time to dig those ditches, have another pike bloc (superior) to paint up first.
Anyone ever try using the Jewish allies? More hosrse archers and light horse to fill out the army. Might do some up some day.