Moderators: hammy, philqw78, terrys, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators
As stated by others you've got it right, but also consider a few things:mikemcmann wrote: That makes them seem quite fragile.
Elephants get an additional +1 to death rolls, so whilst their biggest fear is being shot at, they have to take at a minimum 4 hits before they even risk being killed Elephants were fragile and fickle\ at 50 points for a BG they seem expensive, but not in reality. Most BG's are bigger and seem to have a lot more resilience, but in reality Elephants when used correctly can be a big headache to your enemy. Put them in the open by themselves surrounded by archers and you'll lose them, but that's the same as charging superior pike with knights... the wrong thing to do. Use them right and they'll be tough. Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them. Sure, 50AP and a pointy stick part of your army is hard to not use, but if it doesn't have a place in the current battle try to use it in an intelligent way. Many mounted troops are used in BG's of 4, so they Elephants can give rear support to them if nothing else, so design your army to take that into account. Elephants disorder cavalry they are within 1 base width of. Thus, if you have a formation like this:
being Cavalry and being Elephants - this is what happens: 
being disordered cavalry. get 2 dice. They lose 1:3 dice due to being disordered. How many dice do they lose? ZERO! 
being Knights and being blank spaces... but that's what Elephant runners (light infantry) are for.Yes, this is the standard 'confusion' by new players. Disorder is different from disruption. Only the stands so affected take a reduction when disorded. Thus, a BG of pikes can happily go into uneven terrain, so long as only one column is in there (saw it recently actually). However, that said, the unit is considered disordered for morale purposes (I think) so will take a -1 if they have to test.mikemcmann wrote:When just one stand is disordered, isnt the entire BG at the 1 per 3 reduction? I thought that calculation was on a BG per BG calc not on a stand by stand one?
Well, my Vulcan friend, that's the way the rules are written. You've got to remember that when it comes to disorder most of the time it's because of terrain, thus the whole unit is likely to be 'in' the terrain if they are going to try to deny the enemy the terrain. However, as I sad in the above example half a BG of pike can be in uneven without affecting dice!mikemcmann wrote:It would seem illogical for it to be on a stand by stand as a stand could never have 3 attacks unless scythed......
True, although because the disordering by elephants is 40mm and most bases are 30mm deep or less then in melee you can seriously lose dice - Knights will often be down to three dice against equal frontage.It would seem illogical for it to be on a stand by stand as a stand could never have 3 attacks
Whilst this is true Dave, I don't think it's that big a risk.dave_r wrote: The big problem I have with elephants is if you throw a one with a death roll then it leaves a big hole....
Yes, that's the game. I had shocking luck in a game at BMW. Several times I had something like 4 dice shooting with 50% chance and got 1 hit. Twice I shot at a Knight unit in column with 4 dice needing 5's and 6's, and got no hits. It happens, but the only real way you can work things out is on 'average', unfortunately average very rarely happens in the game.dave_r wrote:I fully agree you have to be unlucky, but that unluck will happen about once every four turns - which is where the problems start
Hi Hammy,hammy wrote:The key things with elephants are to not leave them on their own and not to roll a bad death roll.
The first you have control over, the second you don't.
A couple of elephants in the middle of a line of cataphracts will make enemy knights think twice. A lot of foot are at a - POA against elephants and when the elephants win the foot take a -1 on their CT as well.
I like elephants, so much so that I have to buy another 6 to add to my Indian army which only has 10 at present (2 more to fight with and 4 for commanders).
being Undrilled Cataphracts; and, being Elephants.
I thought I already had:mikemcmann wrote:why would you put your elephants next to your own mounted? They disorder your own as well?
Seems odd.
Explain please....
are disordered. provide 2 dice to the combat provide 2 dice to the combat, and lose 1:3 = = loss of dice = 2 dice. are enemy lancers, are enemy medium infantry, thus the medium infantry would be fighting 4 disordered dice, and it could be argued that it was = 3 dice, but I don't think this is right. Because you have to allocate per BG you would STILL have 2 dice and lose 1:3.Actually it was quite deliberate that only 2 bases are disordered and suffer no redcution until it gets to 3 or more. We didn't want the game affected by minor terrain duges that can happen - e.g. pulling 1 base into terrain out of a frontage of 4. Also give n the ground scale why would 12 pikes be affected if just one had its edge in terrain - makes no sense as the BG comprises a good 5 or 6 units, mosy of which are completely fine.It would seem illogical for it to be on a stand by stand as a stand could never have 3 attacks
True, although because the disordering by elephants is 40mm and most bases are 30mm deep or less then in melee you can seriously lose dice - Knights will often be down to three dice against equal frontage.
The big problem I have with elephants is if you throw a one with a death roll then it leaves a big hole....
Yeah, that is the nail in the coffin for elephants for me 90% of the time.hammy wrote:The key things with elephants are... and not to roll a bad death roll.
Exactly right.mikemcmann wrote:Ok, sorry if I am dense here, but let me see if I get this straight.
Disruption is a BG as a whole effect. In other words, if you are disrupted the aggregate number of hits for the group goes down by 1 per 3. So in a melee with 4 foot bases in contact only and no others, you would have a total of 3 dice. Correct? This is because ALL bases are disrupted I assume?
Disorder is a Base effect. In other words, if you have the same 4 bases and 2 of them are disordered by terrain but not disrupted you would have 4 dice total since only two and not 3 are disorderd? So if the same scenario but THREE of the bases were disordered, then the total dice would be down to three since ONE of the THREE that are disordered goes away? Correct?
Thanks for the VERY clear detailed responses. I am very much a "rules guy" and "need" to know them all very inimately...
Thanks again!
Mike
