BJR question regarding rail movement in Africa

[afk_nero]

Hi

I know that there is no a rail connection between baghdad and Africa - if the Axis take control of Baghdad do they get control of the rail network?

[rkr1958]

Hi

I know that there is no a rail connection between baghdad and Africa - if the Axis take control of Baghdad do they get control of the rail network?

I don't know. I'll ask Borger.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The Axis will NOT gain rail capability in the Middle East if they capture Kuwait, but the Allies will lose it.

Also worth noting is that units located in desert hexes can NOT move by rail. This is because desert hexes reduce the usual supply level by 2. So if the normal supply level is 3 then the supply level in desert is 1. In Egypt the desert hexes will have supply level 3 and they need supply level 4 in order to be moved by rail.

I don't think that's a problem because the rail capability in Egypt was quite limited. Units west of Alexandria is too far from the rail supply source in Kuwait and can't be moved by rail. So you can only use the rail movement on units not in desert terrain from Alexandria and eastwards. You can move units by rail from e. g. Alexandria
westwards (max 40 hexes), but that's another story. This is a quick way to move e. g. garrisons to Tobruk, Benghazi and Tripoli.

The Germans will only have supply level 3 in Kuwait and must walk back to Egypt or use a transport from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea.

[afk_nero]

Excellent - I am just playing a game using the Mod (which is excellent - so thanks allot on this) against Gabriel and have just taken Iraq - He is one tough opponent and Kuwait is looking like a tough nut to crack.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Have you got the latest changes yet including Free France and Vichy France? Free France is a minor power as many of you suggested. Since Timothy managed to keep supply level 5 in Kuwait while having Iraq as a minor power then we didn't need to use Free France as a major power.

The answer I gave you about Kuwait was based on the latest changes with Kuwait belonging to Iraq as a MINOR power. I think the game will be different with Kuwait belonging to Iraq as a MAJOR power. I think some major power capitals provide rail supply to the occupier. E. g. Rome provides rail supply to the Allies, but Moscow does NOT. Maybe it's because Russia has 2 capitals. Paris will again provide rail supply to the Allies once it's liberated, but I don't think it will give rail supply to Germany since Germany already has a supply source in Berlin. I don't think you can have to rail supply sources covering the same hexes.

So it might be the rules give the Allies rail supply in Rome because they have NO link to London or Washington (their other rail supply links). But Ottawa is a major power capital and it does NOT provide rail supply to the British units in Canada. So I believe only the southernmost capital can provide rail supply and only if it's not linked to another rail supply source by land hexes. So Germany can only use Moscow as a rail supply source if the link the Berlin is severed.

So you simply have to try it out. Major power capitals work differently than minor power capitals. I only tested with Kuwait as a minor power capital with supply level 5 for the Allies.

[afk_nero]

No - we began the game before the changes where updated. Its now Nov 1943 and I am stuck at the gates of Moscow. In the South I hold on to Odessa.

On the positive side I have 880 manpower for the germans. I have taken Iraq so have some oil - I also have Spain so the Med is an Italian lake although with Cyprus and Malta still in Allied hands (as well as a carrier and 3 battleships). Kuwait is in the Allied Hands and Gabrielle has around 7 allied fighters (5 american and 2 UK). I have 3 fighters (with a further 2 on the way from the eastern front) but have the upper hand in ground forces and tech.

Personally he has made a Huge mistake trying to save the situation - he could have done more damage trying to land in France. My fighters have level 6 air combat so I have a base factor of 9 versus his 6 as well as better effectivness. Even my 3 fighters are more than a match for him - the other 2 should tip the balance. He is expending allot of PP's keeping the combat and is trapped near the port. My Italian land forces are nearby and should begin combat which should again hurt him. All of his PP's will be sucked into fighting in the middle east meaning that invasion in the west becomes more unlikely.

The main problem has been that Gabrielle has not co-ordinated his attacks - I have has the luxury of fighting at points shifting air resource where they are needed. My army consists of infantry and Mech with allot of air. I have 2 german armoured units left and will build some more soon. My oil levels are improving but getting to this point burnt allot - so will resume an offensive in Russia after the winter.

First task is to clear kuwait and then invade Persia. The Italians have been tasked with holding the west. Currently there are only garrisons and the finnish fighter. However I still rule the seas with the subs (I have around 12 and the german battleship and destroyer) My subs will soon have been fully researched so again even the allied destroyers are no match for them.

The game still has a long way to go but I think I have a small edge. That said Russia is still a powerfull force and the US is dangerous.

I also purchased every leader that has a personal bonus to the Axis and attached them to key units. My force is smaller than what I have seen in the AAR's but with the heavy air sub focus it seems to be paying off.
I must also say that Gabrielle is an excellent oppoenent. In the vanilla game I usually win easily - but versus Gabrielle I am struggeling for dominance.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It's interesting reading about your game. Gabriele stated that the BJR-mod was balanced too much in the favour of the Allies and you seem to prove otherwise. We've done a lot of changes to v1.05 of the mod. Some will help Germany long term (like better max manpower) and slightly reduced US production and starting manpower.

But the change we made about Vichy France and Free France will probably make it harder for the Germans to take Spain early. Southern France will now be part of Vichy France after the fall of France. So the Germans can only use a 2 hex wide border between occupied France and Spain as an invasion staging point unless the Axis commit the Italians for a seaborne invasion as well. The alternative is to first DoW Vichy France, thus spending some turns taking the Vichy French cities in southern France and then moving to the border to Spain.

Worse for Germany will be that the Vichy French territory in North Africa will become Allied controlled. Even worse than this will be that Free France will activate when Vichy France activates. So 5 Free French units will be available in Dakar. Those units can come to the aid of Spain or at least move
to the Vichy ports to protect them from any Axis landings.

So going after Spain via Vichy France will mean you commit to this area for quite awhile.

The Siberian reserve units in Russia will help the Germans initially. 3 armor units, 2 corps units, 1 fighter and 1 tac bomber are all removed from Russia and placed in the Siberian reserve. One armor is replaced by 2 motorized units. Those units will only be released from the reserve when USA joins the Allies or an Axis land unit is within 2 hexes of Leningrad (from the south), Moscow or Rostov. So the Russians can't counter strike so hard in 1941.

I wonder how you got so far in Russia after committing so much to Spain and to Egypt / Iraq. How did you manage to get the units to the Russian front in time? When did you actually start Barbarossa? Do you think it's possible for the Germans to start Barbarossa as early as April 1941 and still have the firepower to capture Moscow?

One consequence of the latest BJR-mod changes is that Germany will not get 2.5 PP's per turn from southern France until Vichy France activates after an Allied DoW. Then they will get 5 PP's per turn instead. Before they would have gotten 2.5 PP's turn every turn till these cities were captured (half income from occupied cities). But now they get none until maybe late 1942 and double afterwards. So Germany will be on a slightly tighter budget than before. But since we gave each major power PP's to pay for a leader it means Germany should still be able to build a strong enough attack force for 1941.

It's strange to me that the Allies haven't managed to kick the Axis out of Iraq even in 1943. I think that if the Axis have captured Egypt and are invading Iraq then the first wave of Allied land forces in 1942 should go for Kuwait and maybe combined with an invasion from the Red Sea. You don't have time to do a Torch in such a circumstance. Then I think the Allied should be able to get more new units into Kuwait than the Germans can get to Baghdad and beyond. If you also land in the Red Sea you threaten to cut the Axis African empire in 2 and you can kill the Italians there and take ports to reduce the ability for the Axis to reinforce his forces in Iraq.

It's good to see that the Axis player can still capture Egypt and even Iraq even with the Malta supply rule. Some people claimed that the Malta supply rule made it impossible for the Axis to get anywhere in Africa. You and Joe have both proven that this is not true. Or maybe you captured Egypt because you took Gibraltar first, thus lifting the Malta supply rule limitation? This is another reason why the introduction of Vichy France in southern France is quite important. It shouldn't be easy to get all the way to Gibraltar. Now the Germans must sacrifice something if they go after Gibraltar. There might not be time to attack both Egypt and Russia.

Did you feel that the forces in Spain and Gibraltar were adequate to give your Germans a serious resistance or should these forces be boosted?

[afk_nero]

Well actually I need to edit something.

The time is now Nov 1942 and not 1943 - so this makes a difference.

As for my tactics - I agree that the Malta supply rule make the capture of Iraq almost impossible. I finished off france fairly early due to a mistake by Gabriele - he removed 2 garrisons from the Maginot, which isnt a problem if he was facing other garisons - however I quickly railed corps units into the line - he didnt notice them (as I hoped) and as a result I pushed through into France bypassing the usual river defence.

I then had two choices - Sealion or Spain. I opted to go for Spain and pretty much threw everything at Spain. I went for Barcalona first with a amphibeous landing and air + ground attacks as well as going for the moutain units attacking with an attached leader. He decided to support the forward defence which again with air superiority made it simple for me to take out the opposition. The biggest issue in Spain was not the Spanish but rather the terrain. There was a longer struggle to get Gibralta. In Africa in the meantime I sent through a motorised corps and an infantry corps as well as every italian unit available (no air units until the fall of gibralta). I never moved in Africa. While waiting for the final fall of Gibralta I used fighters based in Sicily and a TAC to destroy the fighter based in Malta. I find that the fighter based in Malta is a hinderence rather than a help to the allied cause. The reason this is because I can attack Malta with a TAC, lure the fighter to intercept and then attack it again with the extra fighter. The Allied player not wanting to see a fighter go down usually reinforces it sucking PP's from an already starving UK. The Axis lose oil but to me at this stage I want to prevent the UK player from building more units. This worked well for me as I estimate almost 100PP's where used in trying to keep the Malta fighter going. I lost around 30PP's.

When I had taken Gibralta I moved all air (4 fighters and 4 TAC's) into Africa - Gabrielle fought very well but against this his 2 UK fighters didnt stand a chance - that said I lost the entire Italian Navy. I also lost the DAK but pushed on to take Iraq. He had 1 UK corps, a single garrison and 2 fighters left - but then landed 5 US fighters, 2 corps a Mech and armour. The fight is now on.

My forces currently include - German: Corps (With Manstein), Mech (level 9), 3 fighters and 2 tacs - Italians: 5 Coprs, Mech, Armour and a TAC with a garrison slowly making its way to Baghdad. I also have 2 further german fighters who have just made it to Libya (2/3 turns away from the fight). He is trapped on the coast and will have to attack my ground forces with air to keep them away from his fighters. I cant see me losing the battle.
With regards to the Red Sea - I control the Red sea (I also have a German Sub hiding) so he cant land there - we also agreed that he couldnt land in the middle of Africa (Sudan). So there is no way of bisecting my forces.

In the West nothing is happening as most of his PP's are going to feed his fighters - he needs all the UK PP's he can get. In the west I have mostly garrisons with a Mech corps and 2 german fighters just sitting there doing nothing.

In Russia - he launched an attack in April - with my heavy investment in air units and subs I didnt have much land units - luckily however all my units where fully upgraded and I had 1 strat, 8 fighters and 3 TAC's (soon followed by a further TAC). I suffered mostly with the german allies, but really hurt him - his fighters all lost allot of steps and with no convoys getting through I am outproducing him. eventually he had to pull back leaving 3 trapped corps. I had to quickly build a number of Corps, but have for example been saving Italian PP's and in one turn they produced 4 corps and the germans a further 4.
In the East I always put allot of focus on taking Leningrad as I then have rail links between Finland and the rest of the Axis - I use this point as the attack base through the forest with upgraded Infantry supported by TAC's - limiting his ability to counterattack with armour. In the south I will not be looking to expand (I dont need the oil now I have Iraq).

So what is the situation now and what are my challenges.

I am still low on oil but this is growing slowly - if I use all of my oil using assets I will still burn more than I can produce - Its now winter in Russia, I will launch a limited offensive in the North, in the centre and south I will hold ground but slowly reinforce the units. The main focus of my energies will be in destroying allied forces in Kuwait. Once they are dealt with I will have to attack Persia to continue to feed my growing air force. Once the allies have been evicted from Kuwait they will look to either go for a Torch or Normandy.
Italians have been tasked with holding Africa and the West. There is a corps based in North Africa ready to slow any Torch type attacks (based in Spanish Africa just outside casablanca). Torch will again be a black hole for the Allies so I dont believe he will do this. The bigger threat will be Normandy but I am assuming he will want to clear my subs and then he still wont have air superiority yet. The West I think is safe until '44. The plan is once oil is totally not a problem to defend the west mostly with 5 fighter and a few Italians and subs. He will struggle to get air parity and any landings will be damaged and destroyed by Italian Mechs.

Germans manpower is 880 currently but growing now its winter - I am building more air and the odd corps every few turns. Italians are at around 360 manpower and growing. I dont like to just produce units early but rather when we need too. I will need all the manpower at the end of the war.

The biggest concern I have is the Russians still have all of there armour (damaged but still there) - I need more TAC's and more corps, I have enough fighters for the moment in the east.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Interesting reading. In BJR-mod v1.05 we've introduced the possibility to place fighters and CV's on sentry duty. So if you hit the S key while hte unit is active then you will see a Zzz symbol drawn on the unit. This means the fighter or CV will NOT intercept even if it can. You just click on the unit to relieve it from its sentry duty.

This rule will be particularly important for the British fighter in Malta. You can place it on sentry duty if it's harassed by Axis air units. Then you only have to deal with direct air attacks.

If you install BJR-mod v1.05 then the existing games will immediately be affected by the updated class files (including the sentry duty rule). The changes to the map and 1939 scenario will only be seen in new games started after v1.05 is installed.

You can even get the new NATO symbol graphics seen in existing games by installing v1.05 since the changes to how the game will read the graphics files are in the class files. You also need to install the new graphics files in the image/unit folder.

So I think your game would have been different if you had played with v1.05. Do you think you would have moved after Spain if you had to attack along a narrow corridor close to the Atlantic coast (combined with an amphibious landing near Barcelona) OR would have to attack Vichy France first to get a much wider front line to Spain? Or would this make it so time consuming and costly so you would try something else instead?

We would like to see the possibility of people attacking Spain, but it should not be so easy so it will become the norm. It's the same with Sealion. Both invasions should come at a cost to the Axis. You open one door and close other doors.

E. g. an Axis invasion of Vichy France and then Spain would make the Free French units available for the Allies. These units can be sent to
Kuwait or Egypt to help the British. So you need to move quickly against Egypt as well to succeed with both. So it may be better to ignore Vichy France and go for a seaborne invasion of Spain plus the narrow corridor attack along the Atlantic coast. Sending Axis air units to the Baleares is probably a good idea so you get aircover for your invading fleet.

Also remember that the German units will use the Italian amph capability in the Med until Gibraltar falls (new house rule) so you can only land in 3 hexes on the first wave against Spain, not 3 hexes from German and 3 hexes from Italian units.

[rkr1958]

While waiting for the final fall of Gibralta I used fighters based in Sicily and a TAC to destroy the fighter based in Malta. I find that the fighter based in Malta is a hinderence rather than a help to the allied cause. The reason this is because I can attack Malta with a TAC, lure the fighter to intercept and then attack it again with the extra fighter.

Just thought I'd point this out (sorry). Take a look at House Rule 17, which I've quoted below with special emphasis (i.e., bolding) added.


By the way, it sounds like you have an exciting game with Gabriele going on. It's great to get feedback from others playing the mod and trying strategies that none of us have tried or even though of. Like Borger, I'm enjoyed the read on your game.

17. Special Basing Restrictions:

The hexes adjacent to the fortresses of Gibraltar, Scapa Flow and Malta are intended for use as airbases only, and only by the side controlling the fortress. Any air unit in these hexes cannot be directly attacked by any unit as long as the adjacent fortress is friendly. If the adjacent fortress hex is conquered and occupied by an unfriendly unit then that air unit is subject to attack by any and all units until it is destroyed or until it rebases from that hex.

[afk_nero]

While waiting for the final fall of Gibralta I used fighters based in Sicily and a TAC to destroy the fighter based in Malta. I find that the fighter based in Malta is a hinderence rather than a help to the allied cause. The reason this is because I can attack Malta with a TAC, lure the fighter to intercept and then attack it again with the extra fighter.

Just thought I'd point this out (sorry). Take a look at House Rule 17, which I've quoted below with special emphasis (i.e., bolding) added.


By the way, it sounds like you have an exciting game with Gabriele going on. It's great to get feedback from others playing the mod and trying strategies that none of us have tried or even though of. Like Borger, I'm enjoyed the read on your game.

17. Special Basing Restrictions:

The hexes adjacent to the fortresses of Gibraltar, Scapa Flow and Malta are intended for use as airbases only, and only by the side controlling the fortress. Any air unit in these hexes cannot be directly attacked by any unit as long as the adjacent fortress is friendly. If the adjacent fortress hex is conquered and occupied by an unfriendly unit then that air unit is subject to attack by any and all units until it is destroyed or until it rebases from that hex.

Aaah - I thought that this was only for sea and land units. I thought when it came to air war that it was all fair game. Malta was bombed allot during the war almost destroying the fighters based there.
Gabrielle didnt complain either - however I will let him know of the breach and offer a suitable compromise of removing an air unit from the frontline for a year.

[rkr1958]

While waiting for the final fall of Gibralta I used fighters based in Sicily and a TAC to destroy the fighter based in Malta. I find that the fighter based in Malta is a hinderence rather than a help to the allied cause. The reason this is because I can attack Malta with a TAC, lure the fighter to intercept and then attack it again with the extra fighter.

Just thought I'd point this out (sorry). Take a look at House Rule 17, which I've quoted below with special emphasis (i.e., bolding) added.


By the way, it sounds like you have an exciting game with Gabriele going on. It's great to get feedback from others playing the mod and trying strategies that none of us have tried or even though of. Like Borger, I'm enjoyed the read on your game.

17. Special Basing Restrictions:

The hexes adjacent to the fortresses of Gibraltar, Scapa Flow and Malta are intended for use as airbases only, and only by the side controlling the fortress. Any air unit in these hexes cannot be directly attacked by any unit as long as the adjacent fortress is friendly. If the adjacent fortress hex is conquered and occupied by an unfriendly unit then that air unit is subject to attack by any and all units until it is destroyed or until it rebases from that hex.

Aaah - I thought that this was only for sea and land units. I thought when it came to air war that it was all fair game. Malta was bombed allot during the war almost destroying the fighters based there.
Gabrielle didnt complain either - however I will let him know of the breach and offer a suitable compromise of removing an air unit from the frontline for a year.

This rule was put in before we had the sentry function to prevent the vary tactic that you employed. I remember in one of our play test game a few months back that Jim used this against Borger. Maybe we should reconsider this rule now that we have the sentry function. That is; allow one air attack against fighters in these bases.

[gerones]

. Paris will again provide rail supply to the Allies once it's liberated, but I don't think it will give rail supply to Germany since Germany already has a supply source in Berlin. I don't think you can have to rail supply sources covering the same hexes.

Playing against AI with Allies in the last BJR mod, I´ve seen Paris doesn´t give 5 supply to the Allies nor rail capability in France. Have you tested this?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

. Paris will again provide rail supply to the Allies once it's liberated, but I don't think it will give rail supply to Germany since Germany already has a supply source in Berlin. I don't think you can have to rail supply sources covering the same hexes.

Playing against AI with Allies in the last BJR mod, I´ve seen Paris doesn´t give 5 supply to the Allies nor rail capability in France. Have you tested this?

Not lately. We rarely finish our games before we try new stuff. Maybe it was changed in official version 1.12?

[rkr1958]

. Paris will again provide rail supply to the Allies once it's liberated, but I don't think it will give rail supply to Germany since Germany already has a supply source in Berlin. I don't think you can have to rail supply sources covering the same hexes.

Playing against AI with Allies in the last BJR mod, I´ve seen Paris doesn´t give 5 supply to the Allies nor rail capability in France. Have you tested this?

Not lately. We rarely finish our games before we try new stuff. Maybe it was changed in official version 1.12?

I think I recall having rail capability in France after the Allies recaptured Paris in our last round of play test games a few weeks ago. But I can't swear to it though.

[gerones]

Not lately. We rarely finish our games before we try new stuff. Maybe it was changed in official version 1.12?

The official version 1.12 (without BJR mod) doesn´t change anything about this. If you play with Allies in gold version and capture Paris you will gain 5 supply level and rail capability like it happened in 1.07 and the older versions. If you play with Allies in the last BJR mod and capture Paris this only provides to the allies 3 supply level with no rail capability even you conquer all the cities of France, Belgium and Holland... The same happens in Italy when is conquered by the Allies: you don´t have full supply nor rail capability which is specially annoying because of the too mountainous CEAW italian territory... All of this have been checked playing against AI and not in PBEM, but if you test this in PBEM, this too will probably happen to you unless this problem only goes on in my CEAW...

[rkr1958]

Not lately. We rarely finish our games before we try new stuff. Maybe it was changed in official version 1.12?

The official version 1.12 (without BJR mod) doesn´t change anything about this. If you play with Allies in gold version and capture Paris you will gain 5 supply level and rail capability like it happened in 1.07 and the older versions. If you play with Allies in the last BJR mod and capture Paris this only provides to the allies 3 supply level with no rail capability even you conquer all the cities of France, Belgium and Holland... The same happens in Italy when is conquered by the Allies: you don´t have full supply nor rail capability which is specially annoying because of the too mountainous CEAW italian territory... All of this have been checked playing against AI and not in PBEM, but if you test this in PBEM, this too will probably happen to you unless this problem only goes on in my CEAW...

Good catch. I just verified for myself that the bug is in our mod and is not there in the vanilla game. We'll get it fixed.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Not lately. We rarely finish our games before we try new stuff. Maybe it was changed in official version 1.12?

The official version 1.12 (without BJR mod) doesn´t change anything about this. If you play with Allies in gold version and capture Paris you will gain 5 supply level and rail capability like it happened in 1.07 and the older versions. If you play with Allies in the last BJR mod and capture Paris this only provides to the allies 3 supply level with no rail capability even you conquer all the cities of France, Belgium and Holland... The same happens in Italy when is conquered by the Allies: you don´t have full supply nor rail capability which is specially annoying because of the too mountainous CEAW italian territory... All of this have been checked playing against AI and not in PBEM, but if you test this in PBEM, this too will probably happen to you unless this problem only goes on in my CEAW...

Good catch. I just verified for myself that the bug is in our mod and is not there in the vanilla game. We'll get it fixed.

I think this bug must have been introduced in one of the class files, probably when we gave supply level 5 to Kuwait (Basra). Can you bring this news to Timothy?
Do you have a chance to use class files older than v1.05 when we made Vichy France and introduced supply level 5 in Kuwait and see if the problem still exists there?

[rkr1958]

The official version 1.12 (without BJR mod) doesn´t change anything about this. If you play with Allies in gold version and capture Paris you will gain 5 supply level and rail capability like it happened in 1.07 and the older versions. If you play with Allies in the last BJR mod and capture Paris this only provides to the allies 3 supply level with no rail capability even you conquer all the cities of France, Belgium and Holland... The same happens in Italy when is conquered by the Allies: you don´t have full supply nor rail capability which is specially annoying because of the too mountainous CEAW italian territory... All of this have been checked playing against AI and not in PBEM, but if you test this in PBEM, this too will probably happen to you unless this problem only goes on in my CEAW...

Good catch. I just verified for myself that the bug is in our mod and is not there in the vanilla game. We'll get it fixed.

I think this bug must have been introduced in one of the class files, probably when we gave supply level 5 to Kuwait (Basra). Can you bring this news to Timothy?
Do you have a chance to use class files older than v1.05 when we made Vichy France and introduced supply level 5 in Kuwait and see if the problem still exists there?

I just ran the test with BJR Mod v1.02 and the Allies get supply level 5 and rail when they recapture Paris. I'll keep doing some digging and see what class file change introduced this bug.

I did send an email to the entire group with Timothy on it.

It's probably best is we take this offline and resolve it via email. We'll post when we determine root cause and/or have a fix.

[gerones]

As you told before this is only a beta version...