Ranking hero abilities for harder playthroughs

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

Hello,

so far the Grand Campaign of Panzer Corps II has been mostly very easy for me, because there are so many broken hero combinations. I want to stop this now so I am a bit more challenged, it has become very boring over time.
My idea was to give myself an extra rule: Every hero has a point level and every unit can only have a combination of 5 points for the heroes.
I thought I would rank every hero with 3, 2,1 or 0 Points. Now there is a tier list done by tassadar some time ago, but it has more than three ranks.

My ranking would look like this:

3:
Double Attack
Ignores Entrenchment
No Retaliation
Rapid Fire 2x
Zero Slots
any named hero (Rudel, Kloss, Wintsberger, Dir, Galland etc.)
Lightning Attack

2:
Fast Deployment
Butcher
Camouflage
Crippling Blow
Envelopment (but combination with Overwhelming Attack not allowed)
Exterminator
Hit and Run
Lethal Attack
Rapid Fire x1,5
Reduced Slots
Vigilant
AT Support
Consolidator
First Strike
Flag Killer
Provocator
Tank Killer
Entrenchment Killer 4x
Double Support

1:
On the Roll
Overwhelming Attack
Scavenger
Shock Tactics
Aiming Assistance
Artillery Support
Close Combat
Counter Battery Fire
Double Move
Fast Rebase
Precision Weapon
Unyielding
Ambusher
Bunker Killer
City Fighter
Distraction
Entrenchment Killer 3x
Expert Recon
Expert Support
Fearsome Reputation
Fierce Fighter
Leadership
Low Altitude Attack
Superior Maneuver
Aggressive Counterattack
Readiness
Skilled Support
Thorough Preparation
0:
Legendary
Cheap Replacements
Combat Luck
Double Mass Attack
Entrenchment Killer 2x
Famous
Fast Learner
Field Repairs
Liberator
Avenger
Evasive
River Assault
Fighter Support
Ignores Mass Attack
No Retreat
Prudent
Resilient
Skilled Recon
Smart Entrenchment
Survivor
Tenacious Defender
Fast Entrenchment
fast Retreat
Ferocious Defense
Learns From Mistake
No Surrender
Safe Transit
Sixth Sense


My Plan is to make sure that no unit will have any insane combinations of heroes that will just allow me to steamroll everything.
Do you agree? Any tips on what I might change?

[Mateusz300]

Disagree. Still you can make insane combination. For example:

Double Attack: 3 points + tank killer 2 points = 5 point. If you put it on Ju 87 you can destroy almost every tank.

Hero Wirstenberger: 3 point + envelopment = 5 points. If you attack enemy infantry - you know what will happen.

Just fast two examples. This game is broken because of heroes. In PC 1 it was solved much better. Thats why i went back to PC1 for several months.

I wanted to play AO again without heroes, or with not very strong heroes. The problem is we encounter enemy heroes or - !!! nemesis in some missions. Then you need some insane heroes combination, because nemesis have crazy heroes combinations. So i gave up, I didn want to become a nervous wreck

And now Iam playing again PC 1. In my opinion, PC 2 with heroes like PC1 (attack, observation, move, defense, range attack) could be outstanding game.

[Bee1976]

Do you agree? Any tips on what I might change?

Have you tried to alter the difficulty by picking soime harsh neg traits or special challenges ? or both ?
There are some combinations, that make winning impossible, even if you assign only broken hero combinations to your units

But ofc houserules are a good way to increase your personal eyperience. My tip would be: dont be that strict in the way you rank the heros. I would suggest avoiding broken combos. Or simply that only 1 hero per unit rule.

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

Oh yeah, of course I would have to take into account special heroes much better, true.

I am already at the highest difficulty. I just don't really like those special challenges and negative traits. I think quite a few of them are really great ideas, I just don't want to play with them.
Only one hero per unit means that I don't use 70% of my heroes which would be a bit sad. I guess I could just try to not use ridicolous combos.
My main issue is that I want this game to feel like PC1, where on pretty much every map I was scrambling to reach the objectives. The last map I have done is rzhev 1941 in the PC2 GC, and normally this should be really hard. Only one real road to advance, terrible weather, having to cross a major river into a town, constant counterattacks everywhere. But I easily finished it in 2/3 of the turns by just absolutely pummeling the defenders with insane hero artilleries (double attack and what not) and then breaking through with multiple overruns in very few turns.

[Resolute]

I am also using a tier list but I allocate hero tiers by chance. So tier1 would be something like 1%-15%, tier2 16%-40%, etc. I then roll a random number for the tier and then another one for the hero pool of the tier list. I also limit myself to one envelopment, overwhelmig attack and shock tactics hero - overall it works for me.

[Korvessa]

Wouldn't the easiest way be to select either or both of these:
1) Reduce the chances of getting a hero
2) Increase the hero mortality trait

[sakura006]

I don't see overrun, but I assume it's 3 points.

Camouflage (2) + AT support (2) + Artillery support (1) on a tank. (The only limit is the ammo)
overrun (3?) + rapid fire (2) on an engineer. (Close terrain killing machine)
Consolidator (2) + prudent (0 seriously?) + avenger (0) on an engineer. (Close terrain killing machine)
First strike (2) + rapid fire 1.5 (2) + fast rebase (1) on a fighter (Fighter Ace)
Any named hero + rapid fire 1.5 (2).

Some heroes are just overpowered, it doesn't matter what combination they have. If you want some challenges, play special challenges. (+5 strength for every enemy unit, but I don't remember the name).

[charge62]

I played PC over and over and loved it. 90% of the time a hero would be useful, with the occasional hero that had a good bonus, but on the wrong unit. I've played through the grand campaign east and not had a single +rng arty, which I could live with. In another game not a single infantry attack bonus over +1 and not a single tank with defense bonus above +1, which was challenging.

I've only played the through the PC2 DLCs 3 times. What discourages more game time in PC2 is the hero system. It's is too likely to get a broken hero mix, either under-powered or over-powered. And there are some missions that seemed designed to need good heroes and hero combinations.

The PC2 hero system is too complicated to support an easy fix. At least, I haven't been able to come up with such a fix. What we need is the ability to edit heroes and hero rules. This would enable the mod community to design and test multiple solutions and possibly find a workable system.

Until hero system problems are resolved, I really have an aversion to investing time in PC2. At present, I am unlikely to buy further DLCs.

PC attracted me and was engaging. If I could, I would ask for a better PC AI and some tweaks to hero assignment.

PC2 is sadly repellent.

[Bee1976]

It's is too likely to get a broken hero mix, either under-powered or over-powered. And there are some missions that seemed designed to need good heroes and hero combinations.

The PC2 hero system is too complicated to support an easy fix.

The Hero System is the big feature of PC2 and to me real fun. I enjoy them, I would like a system to exchange heros, because i often get a lot of the same in my playthroughs like 5 or 6 double attack bad boys or to many zero/reduced slot heros.
Buuuut there are many ways to handle the problem recieving to many strong heros:
lower hero chance, sell them, dont assign them, dont create op combinations, use the 1 hero/unit challenge, or if you want at least 2 heros on a unit pcik the trait for +1 hero per unit. or play with a personal houserule
Green Knight on YT has some real nice hero restrictions and rocks the game on generalissimus.
Edmon on YT plays weird challenges and traits in his campaigns (and he recives a bunch of "useless" heros in scw and ao39 and he owned the game on generalissimus aswell.

Yes, some missions are harder and good heros are a big help, but here are ppl around that play pc2 without heros. I would never do that, because i enjoy that system very much. But it is possible to win the AO without heros so far, based on statements i read on the forums.

PC2 is sadly repellent.

Well most played game form slith these days, so it seems there are a lot of players that are not "repelled". Thats no offense, if a game is no fun i wont play it aswell. I.e. civ 5 is a game i really really really love. civ6 is repelling me Its a nice game, but i dont enjoy it. So i dont play it

But i suggest if heros are your main/only issue,, try to play around that issue. PC2 is worth it from my point of view.

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

The Hero System is the big feature of PC2 and to me real fun. I enjoy them, I would like a system to exchange heros, because i often get a lot of the same in my playthroughs like 5 or 6 double attack bad boys or to many zero/reduced slot heros.
Buuuut there are many ways to handle the problem recieving to many strong heros:
lower hero chance, sell them, dont assign them, dont create op combinations, use the 1 hero/unit challenge, or if you want at least 2 heros on a unit pcik the trait for +1 hero per unit. or play with a personal houserule
Green Knight on YT has some real nice hero restrictions and rocks the game on generalissimus.
Edmon on YT plays weird challenges and traits in his campaigns (and he recives a bunch of "useless" heros in scw and ao39 and he owned the game on generalissimus aswell.

Yes, some missions are harder and good heros are a big help, but here are ppl around that play pc2 without heros. I would never do that, because i enjoy that system very much. But it is possible to win the AO without heros so far, based on statements i read on the forums.

I like heroes, but I agree with charge62, they are just to strong. And they are a big part of the game, I don't like to have to restrict myself from using it. Thats like - say - to play Civilisation V and not use social policies.

PC2 is sadly repellent.

Well most played game form slith these days, so it seems there are a lot of players that are not "repelled". Thats no offense, if a game is no fun i wont play it aswell. I.e. civ 5 is a game i really really really love. civ6 is repelling me Its a nice game, but i dont enjoy it. So i dont play it

[/quote]

I think repellent is a strong word, PC2 is a good game, but sadly not as good as PC. Exactly like Civ 5, PC2 is more flash than substance in comparision to PC1 or Civ6

[FunPolice749]

Speaking from experience I would honestly try to play without heroes besides those gotten from commendations. I have played through every single campaign and scenario without heroes on the highest difficulty and I find it quite fun. If you are looking for a more straightforward gameplay it's imo the best way to go about it without needing to make tons of specific rules.
Running into nemesis or Soviet tank armies becomes a serious challenge that really requires careful planning and engagement because they outright will beat you in a head on fight. Honestly I can't go back to heroes nowadays because of how exciting it is to have to overcome stuff with just the units I can buy instead of assembling some silly unit that ones shots everything and beats the scenario on it's own.

[charge62]

What about a play through house rule that prevents leaders from being moved to other units. It would eliminate the need for the extensive hero management that is such a time sink and ruins the flow of game play. This might might also be included as a negative commander trait worth a couple points.

[Kerensky]

What about a play through house rule that prevents leaders from being moved to other units. It would eliminate the need for the extensive hero management that is such a time sink and ruins the flow of game play. This might might also be included as a negative commander trait worth a couple points.

I already keep this as a self rule, only on extreme situations do I shuffle heroes around. Or when a experience bonus hero has helped the unit they are attached to reach 3-5 stars and I want to move them to a fresh unit, I like to shuffle for that.

We certainly didn't design scenarios with special hero combos in mind, in fact we go out of our way to make sure that's not a requirement for primary objectives. It's those bonus objectives that are the extra spicy ones.

But Panzer Corps 2 fully expects players to govern their heroes to suit their own play, including limiting them.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1072040/ ... 747298456/

[Kerensky]

I have a Lightning Attack hero, and it's way better than I ever realized. It's not a ground unit hero, ignoring AT or ARTY support isn't a big deal.

I put it on a bomber or bomber killer, and wow does it produce results! Ability to ignore all escorting fighters and cut right into the bomber? Yes please.
Ability to bomb a critical artillery or AT unit, ignoring all fighter and AD protection? Sign me up.

I also like Prudent on Infantry. Their large unit size makes them unkillable as they take more losses, so they don't get 'finished off'

And my Infantry get decimated in the campaign environment, especially in recent 42 and 43. Weapon improvements are dramatically out scaling infantry defense values in the Late War.

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

What about a play through house rule that prevents leaders from being moved to other units. It would eliminate the need for the extensive hero management that is such a time sink and ruins the flow of game play. This might might also be included as a negative commander trait worth a couple points.

Yeah, especially annoying when you have those missions with only airplanes. Often takes what feels like an hour to move all heroes around. I do think those missions where you have to change your core are super cool, but this can be somewhat tedious.

[Grondel]

i posted a suggestion in the suggestion thread concerning the "Hero-management-ui", well if a list deserves that name.
imo this list is what is causing most of the "ohnonotagainanairmission" i keep experiencing.

support it, make demands, cause riots, whatever it takes to get attention.
maybe then we will have a less tedious time preparing to and from the air missions with our piled up heroes.

sers,
Thomas

[Magni]

I have a Lightning Attack hero, and it's way better than I ever realized. It's not a ground unit hero, ignoring AT or ARTY support isn't a big deal.

I put it on a bomber or bomber killer, and wow does it produce results! Ability to ignore all escorting fighters and cut right into the bomber? Yes please.
Ability to bomb a critical artillery or AT unit, ignoring all fighter and AD protection? Sign me up.

Why do you think I gave Rudel Lightning Attack, Double Attack and Ignores Entrenchment? Pesky 203mm guns dug in on a hilltop behind a river? No problemo.

I also like Prudent on Infantry. Their large unit size makes them unkillable as they take more losses, so they don't get 'finished off'

And my Infantry get decimated in the campaign environment, especially in recent 42 and 43. Weapon improvements are dramatically out scaling infantry defense values in the Late War.

Yeah, late war infantry better sit in close terrain or next to an AT unit if they don't have a deathwish. That's why Volksgrenadiere>Wehr'43. The extra 4 close defense on Volks actually makes a difference while Wehr '43 having 10 ground defense over 8 won't save them from getting mulched in the open.

I found Prudent funny on slot-inexpensive tanks. I'm in '43 still running the Verdeja 2, now at max overstrength with Prudent, Immune to Suppression (No Surrender works, too) and Ignores ZoC. The little blighter can do funny things diving through enemy lines to snipe artillery and create encirclements, and is weirdly hard to kill for those big bad T-34s&Co. Alternatively, a max overstrength Panzer IIIN with Prudent is nigh-unkillable and will wreck anything other than tanks, all for 4 slots.

[Mathew23]

What about a play through house rule that prevents leaders from being moved to other units. It would eliminate the need for the extensive hero management that is such a time sink and ruins the flow of game play. This might might also be included as a negative commander trait worth a couple points.

I already keep this as a self rule, only on extreme situations do I shuffle heroes around. Or when a experience bonus hero has helped the unit they are attached to reach 3-5 stars and I want to move them to a fresh unit, I like to shuffle for that.

We certainly didn't design scenarios with special hero combos in mind, in fact we go out of our way to make sure that's not a requirement for primary objectives. It's those bonus objectives that are the extra spicy ones.

But Panzer Corps 2 fully expects players to govern their heroes to suit their own play, including limiting them.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1072040/ ... 747298456/ fnf

I have read the information mentioned above and found that this is not necessarily a negative characteristic

[RVallant]

Hero generation chance: 25%

Commander trait that makes it so you can only put 1 hero per unit?

Might go some way to helping with the hero crisis.

[Korvessa]

You can also try the David & Goliath and add limited slots
That way you can have your heroes and still have a challenge.
Works for me anyway.