Are Offensive Spear to powerful vs Impact Foot or Pike?

peter777 · Post by **peter777** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:21 pm

After about 15 games of FOG, IMO it seems like Offensive Spear are by far the best all round Foot for the points.

Are Offensive Spear to powerful compared to Impact Foot or Pike?

What do you think?

How can Pike or Impact foot based armies beat Offensive spear armies?

Peter777

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:03 pm

Unsteady them

Impact foot is +1 on impact...spears in melee...but they suffer much more drastically from unsteadiness than impact foot...so they seem to be very much open terrain dependent whereas impact foot can go into the terrain.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:06 pm

As a troop type they are, IMO, great (if the enemy can't get out of the way). If pike BG are isolated, if IF lose the impact, if mounted do not disrupt them, unbeatable. Lots of ifs as well. If they disrupt, dogmeat. Unless you pay lots of points and get armoured superior. Then you don't have enough. The best value troops are armoured, drilled, defensive spear. You can then afford points to spend on manouverable killers.

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:22 am

peter777 wrote:After about 15 games of FOG, IMO it seems like Offensive Spear are by far the best all round Foot for the points.

Are Offensive Spear to powerful compared to Impact Foot or Pike?

What do you think?

How can Pike or Impact foot based armies beat Offensive spear armies?

Peter777

roll high.

also, you have much bigger BG, so you can absorb more damage.

the main thing with impact foot is get him on impact (surprise surprise), and with pike is rely on that +1POA.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:33 am

A lot depends on the flavour of spearmen.

Armoured offensive spearmen are indeed really really hard but are quite expensive (9 or 10 points a base, 18 or 20 per file)

Against them pike are a POA up at impact and even in melee but cost 6 a base or 24 a file.

Protected impact foot are in real trouble against armoured spearmen but even then if they can win the impact (and they will be a POA up) then there is a very good chance that the spear will disrupt making things easier for the impact foot.

Personally I like light spear armed foot, they have the advantage of not being shock troops, something that can be the achillies heel of offensive spear.

Pike should beat offensive spears, even armoured ones. The key is to hit the spear in a solid block and minimise overlaps. If the pike are in BGs of 10 rather than 8 that makes a big difference too.

peter777 · Post by **peter777** » Sun May 24, 2009 9:09 am

Thanks for a few tips.

I have been struggling to defeat Offensive Spear based armies. Rolling average may be part of the porblem but a lack of a viable plan is more of a problem for me.

So any good plans would be greatly accepted, rolling high is not a real plan.

Thanks

Peter777

shall · Post by **shall** » Sun May 24, 2009 11:01 am

Always happy to help

What armies are you facing?

What armies are you using?

Si

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun May 24, 2009 11:41 am

Tempt the BGs out with LF...having to test not to charge is a curse at times...trick is creating the situation when it IS a curse for them

Then pounce and roll well!! Or somehow cause disruption/disorder. Easier said than done, I know, but fun to try. Or let them hit something big to pin them and try and work a small, drilled unit onto a flank.

marty · Post by **marty** » Sun May 24, 2009 11:59 pm

I find pike are fine. The real loser in open play is the impact foot. They cost the same as the offensive spear, are only about as good against foot and are much worse against mounted. Impact foot are fine if you've got one or two units for rough terrain. An army built around them is pretty ordinary. Even many Roman players seem to be taking the absolute minimum of legionaries, as light spear auxilia are considered preferable (AKA Dom Roman Swarm).

Every now and again you will sweep someone away at impact but I'm finding it can be a very long time between drinks (I have used spaniards and various Germanic armies a lot)

Martin

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:26 am

peter777 wrote:After about 15 games of FOG, IMO it seems like Offensive Spear are by far the best all round Foot for the points.

Are Offensive Spear to powerful compared to Impact Foot or Pike?

What do you think?

How can Pike or Impact foot based armies beat Offensive spear armies?

Peter777

I think you've been very unlucky. Look at one of my AAR's. My Offensive Spear was over-run by Impact Foot in one turn.

I think in general the Offensive Spear are going to win against Impact Foot, but they are a lot more reliant on being in the open. I would balk at putting my Offensive Spear into even uneven terrain unless I'd managed to manouver into a decent position, but not so with Impact Foot. Thus, you have an advantage there.

Against Pike, well, I'm never overly keen on going up against Pike as often my superior numbers don't get into the fight. You have 3 or 4 BG's of shoulder to shoulder pikes and only the outside get overlaps... everyone else gets creamed.

Ian

sadista · Post by **sadista** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:18 am

Going to be a small army that contains a lot of armoured offensive spear. Hit the flanks and get LH in behind to turn the back rank around.

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:43 am

Based on limited experience (ie last weekend using superior, protected offensive spear) is they are tough but
fragile. Once you are not steady, combat effectiveness drops off faster than for others and it seems like
an inevitable decline that you can do nothing to stop. For example, against swordsmen the spear now have
a POA against them, as well as losing dice. Which greatly increase the odds of another test with at least -3
for disrupted, 2 difference and 1 x 3 hits. And then if fragmented, the spear lose another POA for no longer
being spear. In contrast, impact foot swordsmen don't have this dramatic POA decline.

All this means a reduced chance of a round with no cohesion change, so no chance to bolster them. One
can almost assume if spear become disrupted, they will then break.

However, when things go well for them, they are powerful and will grind down opponents. Just don't
become disrupted before the opponents do

Given the choice, I'd take armoured over superior as well.

Of course, my experience is a limited sample, and may also be due to my alleged claim of an inability to throw two
dice with a sum greater than 7.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:48 pm

You have the fatal flaw in every army, great figures, great paint job, great list...lousy dice.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:56 pm

peterrjohnston wrote:Of course, my experience is a limited sample, and may also be due to my alleged claim of an inability to throw two
dice with a sum greater than 7.

The real kicker for spear agains impact foot is the extra -1 on the CT for losing to impact foot.

If spear lose to impact foot it is more likely than not that they will be testing at -2 and there is a reasonable chance that they will have a -3 (1HP3B, lost by 2, impact foot). Even with a commander in the BG there is a better than 50% chance the spear will disrupt.

Of course if you can pass every CT you roll spear are super troops. But most things are pretty good if you never fail a CT.

Moro · Post by **Moro** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:09 pm

Is there somewhere a list that can field a good number of armoured, drilled, defensive spear?

...Or medium foot armoured spears?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:15 pm

Medieval Cypriot, Georgian

Moro · Post by **Moro** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:13 pm

Thank you, even if they are two States which made the history of warfare!

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:19 pm

Moro wrote:Thank you, even if they are two States which made the history of warfare!

And aren't Drilled.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon May 25, 2009 6:18 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Moro wrote:Thank you, even if they are two States which made the history of warfare!
And aren't Drilled.

OK I can only think of Hungarian Clippeati then.

My excuse:
I just pluck random thoughts from my brains whilst at work, since I can't peruse the rules, sometimes I type them as answers.
My life would be so much easier if I just had a few ill people to look after and hand out illegible prescriptions to

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:43 pm

That is no way to speak about the Slitherine board Phil !

Are Offensive Spear to powerful vs Impact Foot or Pike?

Are Offensive Spear to powerful vs Impact Foot or Pike?

Re: Are Offensive Spear to powerful vs Impact Foot or Pike?

Re: Are Offensive Spear to powerful vs Impact Foot or Pike?