AA and Arty questions

[Wolfenguard]

Hi there I make a new run
And have some questions about the Aa and arts.

Which units do you prefer.
I normally play with the 15cm arty and some 8.8 aa(especially for de Gaule in Aa Mode). No SPA aso.

Now my questions are.
Is the 8.8. Really the best option For the Aa support or should I try some others.
And for the arty. Are the SPA a alternative or not? Compared to the standard arty I only see some bonus against Bunkers and the option to attack after moving, but with a lower Range.

[adiekmann]

Hi there I make a new run
And have some questions about the Aa and arts.

Which units do you prefer.
I normally play with the 15cm arty and some 8.8 aa(especially for de Gaule in Aa Mode). No SPA aso.

Now my questions are.
Is the 8.8. Really the best option For the Aa support or should I try some others.
And for the arty. Are the SPA a alternative or not? Compared to the standard arty I only see some bonus against Bunkers and the option to attack after moving, but with a lower Range.

The "88" is only really good against aircraft if you either have a Lethal Attack hero on it, or play with Anti-Air Veteran trait. Otherwise, like artillery, it will mainly do suppression rather than kills and your ground units will still take damage. There are some ways to partially offset this, however, like attaching a Expert Support hero to it and, of course, more stars of experience.

For protection against the majority of air attackers (fighters and tac bombers), then you are better off with one of the 2cm AA guns that have rapid fire built-in if you are not playing with AA Hero and don't have a Lethal hero to spare. When I can, I like to give my "88s" a camouflage hero along with a couple others that I have already mentioned. That way I can use them for both AT and AA. They can be devastating against enemy armored vehicles especially if you use them smartly and set up ambushes with them. I have not used SPA in general. I don't think they are worth the extra slots and by the time something good comes along, like the Hummel, you probably have a Fast Deployment hero that you could attach to a towed big gun instead.

Generally, for a variety of reasons, I play with a mixed assortment of lower and higher caliber artillery pieces and AA. In other words, I have both, not all one or the other. Then you mix and match as required for the map you are playing.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

SPG by default is a mobile platform exchanging firepower and range for mobility and protection, so if you are playing with Aggressive Deployment, then SPGs can be totally ignored because that trait eliminates all need for them.
As for AA, playing with AA Veteran eliminates need for anything other than 88s as you destroy aircraft with raw AA firepower and can switch to the best AT you have for a very long time. Without it, only 2cm AA with Low Altitude Attack worth to be used at dealing damage to enemy fighter/tacticals, and 88s against strategics, due to how AA combat works.

[Stephen1024]

Someone already given good answer so I will only add to it.

AA suppression does limit damage fighters tacs can do and will soften them up for air force. Heroes do make them better. 88 also great as antitank weapon to.

Some will play using 88 help air force then simply switch to antitank when nothing in air.


As for size that best for arty that depends what your using it for. Important check ha and sa soft and hard attack. Not going supress tiger with 7.5. More suppression less damage it can cause you when returns fire on your units.

SPA has its places and uses. Yes fast deploy is great on non SPA but you don't know if you'll get or how many. Long maps will be great place for SPA to shine.

Some prefer stick with SPA better mobility. Others will have highly mobile section which they can use to encircle or reach far away fast.

Lot of not so experienced players dislike arty, AA and antitank cause they don't use correctly or understand benefits not having units damaged so much.

Lot inexperienced see SPA think less ammo and sometimes less suppression think not worth using. Then wonder why run out of turns before reaching some objectives.

Hope these help. No insult meant, even I was new once made the same mistakes.

[sakura006]

If you only need AA, then I would say 2 cm Flakvierling 38 is the best AA in this game. It has rapid fire x2 and low altitude attack. With anti-air veteran, it one-shot kills most fighters and tactic bombers in this game. It costs only 1 core slot. Even without anti-air veteran, it can still deal a lot of damage when you reach higher level, or with lethal attack. 88 mm is only better when you are dealing with strategy bombers. However, I don't think you need to worry about the strategy bombers in this game, even without AA. Obviously, they don't deal much damage, and the supply recovers every turn unless you are surrounded.

The real strength of 88mm is its AT mode. However, AT guns entirely depends on your play style and your heroes. If you play without random heroes, or you have very few random heroes, then AT gun is a must, and 88 mm is probably the only option you have. All other AT guns are too weak to penetrate enemy tanks. The problem with 88 mm is that it is too expansive but too vulnerable, which makes it an easy target. A kv1 or t34 can still deal substantial damage to your 88 mm if your 88 mm is directly attacked, even worse by an infantry. 88 mm can't be used to directly attack tanks as well. You lose all initiative after move if you don't pick meticulous planning. Therefore, it can't be used as a shield or a spear like tanks or tank destroyers but only a support weapon behind your other units to protect them. However, AI almost never attack you if your unit is protected by a 88mm unless you have camouflage hero. It is very likely your 88mm does not fire a single shot in a mission if you position it well, and you waste 3 core slots. 88mm is just not very economical. If you get 1 or 2 AT support heroes, assign them on your tanks, and you will never need an AT gun. Even without AT support heroes, once you get better tanks or good heroes (first strike, readiness, tank killer etc), you don't need AT gun as well. Infantry doesn't need AT gun if you position them well.

In my play style, artillery is mainly used to kill entrenchment and protect infantry. My favorite artillery is StuG IIIB. It costs only 2 core slots, it has high ground defense, it has 6 ammo, and it kills 4 entrenchment levels. The only downside is its 1 attack range, but Kloss is made for that. 21 cm is great to have if you have both zero/reduced slots and lethal attack, otherwise, it's not worth the price. I only bring 3 artillery at maximum, and only 2 of them are essential. One StuG IIIB with Kloss and one lethal-15-strength-21cm.

[brumleek]

If you only need AA, then I would say 2 cm Flakvierling 38 is the best AA in this game. It has rapid fire x2 and low altitude attack. With anti-air veteran, it one-shot kills most fighters and tactic bombers in this game. It costs only 1 core slot. Even without anti-air veteran, it can still deal a lot of damage when you reach higher level, or with lethal attack. 88 mm is only better when you are dealing with strategy bombers. However, I don't think you need to worry about the strategy bombers in this game, even without AA. Obviously, they don't deal much damage, and the supply recovers every turn unless you are surrounded.

The real strength of 88mm is its AT mode. However, AT guns entirely depends on your play style and your heroes. If you play without random heroes, or you have very few random heroes, then AT gun is a must, and 88 mm is probably the only option you have. All other AT guns are too weak to penetrate enemy tanks. The problem with 88 mm is that it is too expansive but too vulnerable, which makes it an easy target. A kv1 or t34 can still deal substantial damage to your 88 mm if your 88 mm is directly attacked, even worse by an infantry. 88 mm can't be used to directly attack tanks as well. You lose all initiative after move if you don't pick meticulous planning. Therefore, it can't be used as a shield or a spear like tanks or tank destroyers but only a support weapon behind your other units to protect them. However, AI almost never attack you if your unit is protected by a 88mm unless you have camouflage hero. It is very likely your 88mm does not fire a single shot in a mission if you position it well, and you waste 3 core slots. 88mm is just not very economical. If you get 1 or 2 AT support heroes, assign them on your tanks, and you will never need an AT gun. Even without AT support heroes, once you get better tanks or good heroes (first strike, readiness, tank killer etc), you don't need AT gun as well. Infantry doesn't need AT gun if you position them well.

In my play style, artillery is mainly used to kill entrenchment and protect infantry. My favorite artillery is StuG IIIB. It costs only 2 core slots, it has high ground defense, it has 6 ammo, and it kills 4 entrenchment levels. The only downside is its 1 attack range, but Kloss is made for that. 21 cm is great to have if you have both zero/reduced slots and lethal attack, otherwise, it's not worth the price. I only bring 3 artillery at maximum, and only 2 of them are essential. One StuG IIIB with Kloss and one lethal-15-strength-21cm.

That is a fine assessment .

My "problem" with 88 is just it is a little bit on the expensive side core slots-wise and it can provide "either AA or AT" service only in one turn. Therefore you will leave your core open to air or tank attacks if you utilize 88s only. It has become a significant problem for me in AO 1942, where the Soviets field huge amounts of tanks and Sturmoviks together. So I switched to cheap 2 cm Flakvierling 38 and towed ATs with huge success.

BUT, to add some flavor to you 88 users...

... anyone noticed that 88 is also a quite decent bunker killer?

[VirgilInTheSKY]

My "problem" with 88 is just it is a little bit on the expensive side core slots-wise and it can provide "either AA or AT" service only in one turn. Therefore you will leave your core open to air or tank attacks if you utilize 88s only. It has become a significant problem for me in AO 1942, where the Soviets field huge amounts of tanks and Sturmoviks together. So I switched to cheap 2 cm Flakvierling 38 and towed ATs with huge success.

BUT, to add some flavor to you 88 users...

... anyone noticed that 88 is also a quite decent bunker killer?

Considering the multi-function of 88s, I think it's core cost is actually quite efficient, it is the best AT and best AA (with AA Veteran, of course) combined in one anyway. 8.8cm PaK also cost 3 slot, is towed, and has the same 28 HA, but cannot shoot aerial targets. SPAT with the same HA cost even more slot (Sturer Emil and Nashron 5 slot, Elefant 6 slot), while the best 3-slot SPAT is Marder IIIM with 22 HA, merely enough to penetrate 1942 T-34 and KV-1s. Not to mention that all of these choices arrrives quite late compared to the 8.8cm FlaK.
And yes, 88 is the only reliable bunker killer, except pioneers, until StuGs arrive, which is also a little late when you compare their avilable date.

[George_Parr]

I always try to have an 88 as the main AA-gun. It just offers the best all around capabilities. The 2cm Flakvierling is good in an additional support role, but it's range is simply too limited and you don't always have a hill or mountain nearby. It also lacks the safety of a powerful AT-mode when push comes to shove.

Depending on the mission I'll either have just the 88, or the 88 plus one, maybe two Flakvierling. At times the latter will be the self-propelled version or Italian AA-tank. By the 1942 AO, I tend to have my main 88, plus an additional one that I'll use when the main one gets close to the experience ceiling, or in general to gain more experience with the second one. They are basically never around in the same mission, but you will never know what the later add-ons will have as missions, so it can't be wrong to have a backup in place. Beyond those two, I have a Flakvierling, because of its low core-slot cost, and either another Vierling, a 3.7cm Flak or the self-propelled / tank-Vierling. So about four AA units in total. For the first few years going with just one 88 and another rapid-fire gun is enough though.

I also try to make sure that I build up my AT-forces early on, so that they can gain enough experience for later on. This also means occasionally using the 88 to take down easier targets or against bunkers, just for the experience gain. By 1942, I tend to have the Sturer Emil as main AT-unit that is basically around in every mission. The Panzer I Breda can last surprisingly long with the right heroes, but it just can't keep up anymore by 1942. Around this time, the second AT-unit will either be a long-barrelled StuG, or a 7.5cm gun, depending on the type of mission. Just like with the AA-guns, I only have one AT-unit that is "always" around, with a second or third one only if the available core-slots allow for enough room to cover everything else I want to use in that mission.

[FunPolice749]

AA pretty much has 2 distinct classes in the game

The 2cm are the first type. They have low altitude attack and rapid fire making them amazing at stopping fighters and tactical bombers die to those traits. They also have a low core slot but the biggest weakness is their lack of range.

The other type is the heavy AA guns with the 3.7, 8.8, and 12.8. They have a large range and a massive air attack which makes them most effective at blocking strategic bombers and/or covering large armies. They also can offer strong AT support fire as they mostly have a high hard attack. The downside is mainly they are expensive core slot wise and also don't preform amazingly against fighters/tactical bombers.

Both have their uses and you should make use of both of them depending on the scenario. The only one I would avoid is the 3.7cm as they fall into a really weak middle ground. Otherwise I mix the 2cms with some 8.8s

[Panzer73]

It all depends on your play style and which general traits you pick. For example, I am addicted to Aggressive Deployment, with which infantry, artillery, AA and AT guns can attack immediately after dismounting from vehicles. It is hard to justify the core cost of self-propelled units with this option. On the other hand, for cores that I don't use AD, I will use a mix of self-propelled and towed units.

The 8.8 cm FlaK gun is a legend. And I did not field one regularly in any of my four AO cores, all played from SCW onwards, until I got the Rapid Fire 2x heroes in AO42. I prefer to field fighters rather than AA. When I do field AA, I prefer the 2 cm FlaK gun. You can get three for the price of one 88, cover a larger total area, and kill FTRs and TACs instead of suppressing them, making your fighters' job easier. As mentioned before, the AI doesn't use STRATs effectively*. The 2 cm guns are also pretty good at killing infantry and light vehicles. There have been very few cases where I absolutely needed the 8.8 cm for anti-tank duty. It is a good gun to have when you face De Gaulle in AO40, along with the Char 2C in Neaufchateau...

I prefer to put Elsa Kloss on the Wurfrahmen 40, which I pick up in the Fornebu scenario. Add a Lethal Attack hero, then one-shot kill most units on the field, even without using OS - three of my cores have the No Overstrength trait. Add Zero Slots or Reduced Slots if you want, or Double Attack for extra mayhem.

The 21 cm canon is deadly against armor, and my preferred weapon for taking out De Gaulle in AO40. I'll field it when I can. If I have only one Zero Slot or Reduced Slot hero, I prefer to use the W40.

The 15 cm heavy field howitzer is good, in that it has AT support as well. But I often end up with the 10.5 cm field howitzer instead, due to core limitations.

I don't use the 7.5 cm light field howitzer if I can avoid it. I've equipped auxiliary units with it in my games with the Denied Artillery trait, because I usually end up capturing a lot of them and I'd rather keep the 105 / 122 / 152 /155 mm guns for my core units.

The StuG IIIB is nice, with its 4x Entrenchment Killer property - really needed if you are playing Trench Slog. The StuH42 is even better - it is available in AO42, but you might get it as a prototype in AO41 if you are using Industrial Connections. I did once, loved putting an Overrun hero on it too, as it converts to an AT version as well. Due to their short range, the Double Move hero is ideal for these units. Move in, take your shot, move out, and then attack with whatever will follow up: infantry, flame tank, or a Pz.II or Pz.IV with an Ignores Entrenchment hero...

* Strategic bombers have three uses in PzC: i) dig up entrenched units; ii) speed up surrender of surrounded units by increasing suppression without unnecessarily killing them; iii) kill the mobility of enemy units that present a threat. The last two are even better accomplished with a Shock Tactics hero. Even without it, there have been quite a few occasions when an enemy cavalry, recon or tank unit all of a sudden discovered it couldn't reach my trucks transporting infantry or artillery...

[adiekmann]

I will add my opinion and comment on what some of you all have said above.

The 21cm/203mm guns are fabulous! I never have more than 1 in my core, but after they have a couple of stars they do not need a lethal attack hero (nor does the Wurf40 either for that matter. Try it and you'll see.) They are absolutely punishing against enemy armor and excellent against all fortifications. They are also one of the few weapons who can finish off de Gaulle's tanks in AO40. So unless you are swimming in Lethal Attack heroes, I never waste one on my Big Gun. I always OS and put a Zero Slot and a Double Attack hero on it and then whatever beneficial that I may have, like Fast Deployment/Legendary/etc.

I have 2 88s in my imported from SCW core. They both have well over 3 stars of experience and I have never used them in a training scenario. Camouflage is one of my favorite heroes, and I use them almost exclusively on AT and AA units. Art gets them sometimes, but I find I get more bang for my buck by using them on AT and AA.

You have a lot of open ground to cover in many of the maps in AO 41 and 42. This presents lots of opportunities for moving your infantry and other vulnerable units forward that exposes them to enemy counterattacks, especially those from tanks. AT units of all types, including 88s, play a special role for me of not only protecting them, but sometimes frequently one shot killing them, and often even 2, 3, or 4 in a row! It actually mimics exactly what Rommel historically did so successfully against the British in Africa time and time again. Lure the British tanks to a set line of AT where they devastated them. I do not use Double Support usually on AT/AA units that have =/< 4 ammo because they can run out. I prefer using Expert Support and of course, once you get the AA/AT heroes in '42, those really make them devastating killers. I also always keep one or two towed AT (I like the 5cm particularly because of its 2 movement, 6 ammo, and good HA for the price/cores slots).

I do not play with AA Veteran in AO41/42 because I don't think you need it any longer. Enemy aircraft isn't the threat that it is in earlier DLCs when your fighters are weaker, not to mention how many maps in '41 the AI doesn't even have any aircraft. You should have some exp and heroes by then also to buff their effectiveness.

I love me some Strategic Bombers. I equip one with Double Attack, Lethal Attack, Unyielding, and it becomes as potent a killer as Rudel, especially against soft targets. My three Strat Bombers from SCW all have at or near 5000 exp thanks to the way I use them. (I rotate all of my units to bring their exp up.) They are my go-to method to take out enemy AA defenses too. Entrenched infantry? Mincemeat. More effective than even artillery at killing, not just weakening them for your infantry.

It should be noted that I always play with Trench Slog as one of my automatic negative traits and everything has to be adjusted due to the randomness of heroes that you get. On my current core, I only have 2 Lethal Attack heroes deep in '42 so those get moved around a bit. But I also got 4 Entrenchment Killer 4x heroes. So what do I do? I will take a 10.5 cm art gun, or a strat bomber, and double up those heroes on them. No need to over-strength because that doesn't effect their entrenchment lowering ability. So, 3 slots for a 10 str 10.5 cm gun, or 10 str and 2 slots for a strat bomber with 2x Entrenchment Killer 3/4x? Yeah, Trench Slog is not a problem for me. For that reason, I also am not one of those who "only uses Pioniere infantry." I don't rely on Pioniere to break heavily entrenched positions. I use art and strat bombers added by what I detailed above.

So flexibility is important and mixing and matching units with the heroes that you got to maximize their effectiveness in the map you are playing. Tactics then need to be flexible too of course.

I played the AO40, 41, and 42 on GM level, BTW.

[PoorOldSpike]

Is the 8.8. Really the best option For the Aa support or should I try some others...
And for the arty. Are the SPA a alternative or not?..

Taking the year 1944 as an example, the German 128 mm is the best AA unit with 28 firepower vs aircraft.
The 88 is next best with 24 fpow vs a/c.
(All the other German AA units fpow is only 6 to 12 vs a/c)
TIP- with the 'Anti-air Veteran' trait AA units can carve enemy aircraft out of the sky in droves..
And of course, AA units can also usefully double as AT guns.

Best German artillery in 1944 is the 210mm with a fpow of 20 vs soft, and 31 vs hard.
Personal preference varies, whatever floats yer boat, but I usually prefer SP AA and Arty because its ability to fire on the same turn after moving long distances gives it more flexibility.

[Bee1976]

Italian AA-tank.

May i ask which one you mean ?

[George_Parr]

Italian AA-tank.

May i ask which one you mean ?

There is a Semovente 20/70 Quadruplo (name might be slightly different) of which you can gain 35 units in the last mission of the 1940 Axis Operations (Valona).

[Chalaceador]

This topic has been the best one I have read in this Forum.
Thank you

[eskuche]

It should be noted that I always play with Trench Slog as one of my automatic negative traits and everything has to be adjusted due to the randomness of heroes that you get. On my current core, I only have 2 Lethal Attack heroes deep in '42 so those get moved around a bit. But I also got 4 Entrenchment Killer 4x heroes. So what do I do? I will take a 10.5 cm art gun, or a strat bomber, and double up those heroes on them. No need to over-strength because that doesn't effect their entrenchment lowering ability. So, 3 slots for a 10 str 10.5 cm gun, or 10 str and 2 slots for a strat bomber with 2x Entrenchment Killer 3/4x? Yeah, Trench Slog is not a problem for me. For that reason, I also am not one of those who "only uses Pioniere infantry." I don't rely on Pioniere to break heavily entrenched positions. I use art and strat bombers added by what I detailed above.

The 3x/4x entrenchment stack??!!

[adiekmann]

It should be noted that I always play with Trench Slog as one of my automatic negative traits and everything has to be adjusted due to the randomness of heroes that you get. On my current core, I only have 2 Lethal Attack heroes deep in '42 so those get moved around a bit. But I also got 4 Entrenchment Killer 4x heroes. So what do I do? I will take a 10.5 cm art gun, or a strat bomber, and double up those heroes on them. No need to over-strength because that doesn't effect their entrenchment lowering ability. So, 3 slots for a 10 str 10.5 cm gun, or 10 str and 2 slots for a strat bomber with 2x Entrenchment Killer 3/4x? Yeah, Trench Slog is not a problem for me. For that reason, I also am not one of those who "only uses Pioniere infantry." I don't rely on Pioniere to break heavily entrenched positions. I use art and strat bombers added by what I detailed above.

The 3x/4x entrenchment stack??!!

Yes! Someone on another thread said they don't, but I didn't think that was true based on my experience. So I loaded an old game from Moscow (AO41) and tested it to confirm that they do indeed stack. There was a difference in entrenchment reduction between identical guns that had one vs. two of those heroes.

I just realized now that I always play with Trench Slog so I don't know how that might effect it. I'll retest it and let you know what happens!

EDIT: No, it doesn't stack... I tested it again both with Trench Slog and without and it doesn't reduce the entrenchment level any further with 2x Entrenchment Killers vs. 1x.

See for yourself...

Zagreb TEST.zip

(476.09 KiB) Downloaded 96 times

Don't know what happened last time...

[eskuche]

I was pretty sure it didn't. I load my panzerzugs with a 4x each and was pretty sure I had tested double 4x and 4x + 3x.

Didn't really need any with double 20 strength 21 cm with zero slots and overrun pioneer with butcher though. Doubt I will get as lucky next run.

[Bee1976]

Italian AA-tank.

May i ask which one you mean ?

There is a Semovente 20/70 Quadruplo (name might be slightly different) of which you can gain 35 units in the last mission of the 1940 Axis Operations (Valona).

Thx a lot! I overlooked them.

[nexusno2000]

It should be noted that I always play with Trench Slog as one of my automatic negative traits and everything has to be adjusted due to the randomness of heroes that you get. On my current core, I only have 2 Lethal Attack heroes deep in '42 so those get moved around a bit. But I also got 4 Entrenchment Killer 4x heroes. So what do I do? I will take a 10.5 cm art gun, or a strat bomber, and double up those heroes on them. No need to over-strength because that doesn't effect their entrenchment lowering ability. So, 3 slots for a 10 str 10.5 cm gun, or 10 str and 2 slots for a strat bomber with 2x Entrenchment Killer 3/4x? Yeah, Trench Slog is not a problem for me. For that reason, I also am not one of those who "only uses Pioniere infantry." I don't rely on Pioniere to break heavily entrenched positions. I use art and strat bombers added by what I detailed above.

The 3x/4x entrenchment stack??!!

No it doesn't