Fragmented troops retiring away from all enemy

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:07 pm

During last weekends Tournament I had one game where a BG of fragmented LH wanted to move away from the enemy on their heels. The situation required either a 90° turn or a wheel to do so, but both options would have brought the LH temporarily slightly closer to an enemy BG. The net result would have been a move further away from all enemy BGs however.
My opponent argued that this is not permitted without a CMT (which the LH did not pass). My thinking is that, similar to moving away from enemies which have you in their restricted area, it's the end result of the move that counts. (Especially considering our bases are oversized anyway. A base getting slightly closer to the enemy does not necessarily indicate any troops actually moving closer to the enemy as well.)

I'm pretty sure I read something on that subject here not to long ago, but can't find it again.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:17 pm

End move seems philosophically correct.

But that would also allow LH to run past (i.e. closer then next to then farther away) an enemy.

That makes sense from the hey lads lets get out of here. But i wonder if the failed CMT is to say the troops are unable to get up the gumption to move under orders.

shall · Post by **shall** » Wed May 20, 2009 6:49 am

We consider the levels as

STDY = good shape
DISR = nearly good shape and still a fighting unit
FRG = bit of a gibbering wreck
BRK = gone

So there is a big drop from DISR to FRG.

Part of the mechanics to go wth that is thatyou have to test if anything looks nerve-wracking. FRGs can get way easily only if they have a nice clean run away from enemy. So anything complicated that brings them nearer - even temporarily - is a test. Also in game completion terms one wans it to be difficult to get FRGs back and safe.

Si

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Wed May 20, 2009 7:04 am

I agree that looking to end of move is philosophically correct. Looking to rules IMO you are again right, because you can do without CMT a simple move to retire away and move you wanted to do was simple for LH.
Anyway, perhaps rules could be easier if they state: "FRAG BG can make a simple advance to retire away from all enemy within 12 MU, but must CMT for any other move". I say so because the range within which you must consider enemy is so wide that this, more a manoeuvrability test, is an evaluation test. I mean troops are not simply manoeuvring, in which case skirmishers can perform better than other because skirmishers have a wider range of simple moves, but instead they are looking for a more safety site, and in a such case all kind of troops need to test unless already in a correct facing.

Martin0112 · Post by **Martin0112** » Wed May 20, 2009 8:09 am

As it was me Ghaznavid played against when this discussion was raised, I want to give some words on this as well.
I fully agree that the end of the move must be farer away from the enemy as it has been before, but it MAY happen that to achieve this, we have to get closer to another enemy unit during your move.
The question is only is this is temporarily OK or not.

At the end of the discussion in the tournament we decided to allow the move (it has not helped this poor unit

), but a general clarification will help to close this topic once and forever.

If I understand the statements above correctly, a test must be taken even to come closer to the enemy only during the move that will bring you farer away, correct?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed May 20, 2009 8:12 am

I thnik the idea is that if any part of the BG gets closer to enemy at any point in the move a CMT must be passed.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Wed May 20, 2009 1:34 pm

philqw78 wrote:I thnik the idea is that if any part of the BG gets closer to enemy at any point in the move a CMT must be passed.

So, shouldn't be easier to let just a simple advance without CMT? All discussion would be avoided: if you can make a simple advance AND in this way you end your move farer from enemy, no CMT. In all other cases you must make a CMT. It sounds good, but I didn't spend a lot of time thinking on it, so don't blame me if I didn't consider side effects

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed May 20, 2009 3:29 pm

I thnik the idea is that if any part of the BG gets closer to enemy at any point in the move a CMT must be passed.

That's as I understand it too - and is what Simon has confirmed above.

Pete

Martin0112 · Post by **Martin0112** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:00 am

So, shouldn't be easier to let just a simple advance without CMT? All discussion would be avoided: if you can make a simple advance AND in this way you end your move farer from enemy, no CMT. In all other cases you must make a CMT. It sounds good, but I didn't spend a lot of time thinking on it, so don't blame me if I didn't consider side effects

[/quote]

The problem was that each move, no matter if simple or not will bring the unit TEMPORARILY closer to the enemy, not finally. So a CMT must be taken when FRAGMENTED.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:54 am

Martin0112 wrote:The problem was that each move, no matter if simple or not will bring the unit TEMPORARILY closer to the enemy, not finally. So a CMT must be taken when FRAGMENTED.

... but if you consider only two factors: simple advance AND ending farer from enemy, those cannot be contested. OK, I didn't think to examples, so perhaps I can be wrong, but IMO this should resolve. Do you need a turn? You must pass a CMT no matter troop type. Do you move simply ahead and so you move away from enemy? No CMT.

shall · Post by **shall** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:30 am

If you cn retire away from all enemy its ok. But this sounds like it results in you getting nearer to some during the move and is therefore needing a test.

Basically the concept is:

If you are in a nice straight battle line you can run away backwards with FRGs with simple moves - i.e. things that can turn 180 and rtun away like LH.
If anyone gets you in a complex situation with troops to the sides and rear you will get increasingly stuck and in troublewith a lack of space and the need to CMTto move at all.

If you do it by end position only you cna get very bizzarre situations that are att odds with ths. Imagine enemy 2Mu behind soem FRG Light Horse. You turn and run within 1 mm of them to get entaully 4MU away from them. Should that need a test - for me yes for sure to fit with the philosphy. We had it in testing when setting the rules.

Si

PS it says simple move not simple advance - that is just to mean you have to test for any turns, Undrilled wheel etc. that would normally make something complex.