Newbie rules questions

[HansJansen]

Hi,

I am new to wargaming and FOG is my introduction to this genre of gaming.

I am quite exited, and I believe that fogging will keep me busy for a long time.

I have no experience in dbn, and since most foggers were dbn-ers, the rules seems to cater more for an transition than a clean start ( Or is this just my impression?)

I have some silly questions (Played my forst game on 15 May, after reading the rulebook and army lists for a week), since after my first game I am left with more questions than answers (We had different interpretation of the rules - maybe because of dbn?)

Based on these questions I would like to build an army (Depending on the mechanics different armies seems to fit my playing style better)

My first question is archers









OR










where = MF
= 1 MU
= Cretan Archer (LF - Bow)

In this example it was claimed that since one of the archers could shoot, the whole BG can?
This does not seem right, or did I miss something? ( p83)

My second question when reading the rules again I think I was wrong.
I thought MF and HF can evade as well, whereas on p64, the only ones mentioned was LH,LF,non-shock CAV, CAM, Light Chariots.

On that note, what weapon classify as shock for cav and foot?

Third question I think I had the right answer, but I cannot remember where I read it.
After breaking, and routing, the enemy caught up, and according to the way they wanted to play is remove all the bases in the way of the enemy move. This would have meant 4 bases being removed to which I objected. I remember something like they make contact(not moving their full mu) then you remove a base furthest from the contact. Is that right, and which page reference?

My third question is regarding contacting bases. It said that you can only contact enemy bases with a battle group by feeding into an existing melee into an overlap position. Is an overlap position also to the side, or when you feed in do have to conform to the front of the battle line








are different battle groups. is empty space
What can do to get an advantage, and what does that advantage mean?

Also, what does threatened flank mean. Does it only mean if there is a possibility to be charged in the flank or rear, or does it also mean that it is not the threat alone but the actuality as well, i.e. in melee in the flank? In what positions does it count against POA and when not?

Last question for today.

When cavalry comes close to elephants they get disrupted, when the elephant is gone, do they stay that way?

I am sorry to dump a whole lot of questions at once. I have a lot of other questions, but I will be satisfied for now if I can these couple answered. (PS. I would like to include my army with this thread although it is strictly not an army list thread, since my army list is dependent on the outcome of these rules)

Thank you,

Hans Jansen

[hammy]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

First question:

Shooting dice are calculated on a file by file basis. By the look of your diagram one file of cretans is infront of the MF. Assuming that is correct then the file directly infront of the MF will be able to shoot as will the adjacent file as the arc of fire is only one base width within effective range.

Look at the start of Arc of Fire on P83 - "A base can shoot at an enemy that is not directly ahead...."

Second question:

The troops that can evade are listed on P64. "Skirmishers can evade whatever their formation. Non shock cavalry, cameltry and light chariots can evade if the are formed up entirely one base deep" (1 base deep is defined on P133)

Shock troops are defined in the glossary on P136

Third question:

When pursuers manage to keep up with routers remove one base for each pursuing BG remaining in contact see P108 Removing bases...

Threatened flank is also defoned in the glossary on P136

When cavalry are within 1 base width of elephants they are DISSORDERED not disrupted . As soon as the elephants are no longer within 1 base width the cavalry recover their order.

The question I didn't answer I will try to cover later.

[HansJansen]

Thank you for the extremely quick reply,

I have one more question.

I disagreed with how we looked at the table of POA.
The way we played it was looking at the big plus in the middle of the impact POA, we have looked for any combination of left and right.
I assumed that you only follow the line, but choose only one of the +'s.
I think that I am correct, but I want to make sure my understanding is correct.

Just to clear the archery thing.
In situation 1 I will have 4 units in range, thus 6/2 = 3 dice. (1 dice per 2 bases) {The rightmost two bases can't shoot}
In situation 2 (the OR) they are outside of range, so 8 units is in range, so 8/3 = 2dice. (1 dice per 3 bases) {All the bases contribute}
Is this correct?

Hans Jansen.

[HansJansen]

Also, what does threatened flank mean. Does it only mean if there is a possibility to be charged in the flank or rear, or does it also mean that it is not the threat alone but the actuality as well, i.e. in melee in the flank?

Threatened flank seem to be negative for cohesion tests, but my question is still, until when does this effect "threatened flank" lasts. If it is only while threatened, I can only see shooting and testing because of another bg routing as a reason to include the modifier. For if another group charges at front, the rear or flank is no longer under threat of being charged, because the other group must also charge during the same phase, hence there is no longer a threat of charging, since the charge already happened(If it did not happen, then it would not count anymore since you cannot charge a group already in melee). So in short my question is. Does this effect only last until it is no longer threatened as per definition, or as long as we are in the impact phase, or for the whole turn? (I assume of course if there is a possibility of charging still, like hanging back with all your charges will still give modifier, but that is obvious and not really part of the question)

Thank you,

Hans Jansen.

[hammy]

Thank you for the extremely quick reply,

I have one more question.

I disagreed with how we looked at the table of POA.
The way we played it was looking at the big plus in the middle of the impact POA, we have looked for any combination of left and right.
I assumed that you only follow the line, but choose only one of the +'s.
I think that I am correct, but I want to make sure my understanding is correct.

Where there is a big box with a plus it applies to each line so heavy weapon get a + at impact against any foot and in melee heavy weapons get a + against any except skilled swordsmen and skirmishers.

Normally only one of the lines with the shared + will apply to any situation. It is possible that more than one could apply but the only impact one I can think of is heavy chariots with light spear. Remember the quick reference sheets are not the rules, if you are unsure what they mean check the rules as they often have more detail, in this case it is P96 and 97.

Just to clear the archery thing.
In situation 1 I will have 4 units in range, thus 6/2 = 3 dice. (1 dice per 2 bases) {The rightmost two bases can't shoot}
In situation 2 (the OR) they are outside of range, so 8 units is in range, so 8/3 = 2dice. (1 dice per 3 bases) {All the bases contribute}
Is this correct?

In order to shoot bases must be both in range and in arc. If the archers are lined up exactly with the MF then only one file of archers will be in front of the MF. The file next to that will be in arc (one base width) but the thrid file even though it is in range will not be in arc so can't fire.

In the second example all the shooters are at long range so the arc of fire is 2 base widths and thus 3 files will be in range.

In each case you will get 2 shooting dice. 4 bases with one dice per 2 bases in the first situation and 6 bases with one dice per 3 bases in the second

[hammy]

Does it only mean if there is a possibility to be charged in the flank or rear, or does it also mean that it is not the threat alone but the actuality as well, i.e. in melee in the flank?

Just the threat or in other words if there is an enemy non skirmisher BG capable of charging your flank (even if it has not actually charged) you count as having a threatened flank.

Threatened flank seem to be negative for cohesion tests, but my question is still, until when does this effect "threatened flank" lasts.

As long as there is a BG capable of charging your flank in the next impact phase.

If it is only while threatened, I can only see shooting and testing because of another bg routing as a reason to include the modifier.

??

For if another group charges at front, the rear or flank is no longer under threat of being charged, because the other group must also charge during the same phase, hence there is no longer a threat of charging, since the charge already happened(If it did not happen, then it would not count anymore since you cannot charge a group already in melee).

Ahh, I think I see the problem. You can charge a BG that is in melee, you cannot charge bases that are already in combat though unless you do so as a flank charge. Even if every base in a BG is in contact with enemy it can still be charged in the flank or rear.

I hope thet helps a bit.

[HansJansen]

Thanks Hammy,

It helps a lot!!!

Just to make 100% sure about the flank thing. As soon as the threatened flank charge, the cohesion test would not include a negative modifier since there is no more threatened flank.

So sometimes it might be better to hang back on your charge, and rather keep a negative modifier on cohesion tests?

Glad I understand the shooting thing now. I will post my army in the relevant section. Please comment ( I do not want to buy all the figures unless it is a decent army)

Thanks,

Hans Jansen

[HansJansen]

Can someone still please explain the different ways to feed into melee. It would be my last question for the day.

Thanks for the help and clarification,

Hans Jansen

[shall]

Basically you can expand by a file to get more troops in.

• If you are active you can do this to match an existing overlap, or to create a new one.
  If you are passive you can only do it to match an existing one (but the active player goes first).

There is a bit more you can do contracting bases that are not engaged so they play a role in rear ranks (e.g. if you had a file spare that wasn't an overlap and could get all the bases doing something (i.e contributing dice) you could pull them back into the fight.

[HansJansen]

Thanks, I understand the part where extra bases of the same battle group can feed into melee, but my question is of feeding into melee with a different battle group.

Referring back to the diagram (modified to reflect actual situation)







are different battle groups. is empty space

can the do anything to contribute, or do they have to had contact in the impact phase to act in melee. If they can contribute, I probably misread it, so a page reference is suffice. When we played on friday they advanced to this position






and wanted tho have 12 of their bases contributing to melee, and give a negative modifier for fighting in two directions.

That is why I asked what options have to contribute to the battle?

Thanks,

Hans Jansen.

[hammy]

Have a look at moving into contact with enemy battlegroups on P75

In your example the BG could advance to an overlap possition or it could move (pribably using a double wheel) to a possition where it could execute a flank charge the following turn.

As for threatened flanks the only time a threatened flank modifier would count for for a BG that is charging would be if you have a BG charging a fragmented enemy BG in the flank. In this case the BG being charged would have to take a cohesion test for being charged and at that point its flank would still be threatened. In practice this is irrelevant as when the charge hits the flank the fragmented BG would break anyway.

[shall]

Hans

Yes they can but by "moving to an overlap", its not a "feeding more bases" mechanic as this section is about a BG already in combat. Here you are bringing a new BG into combat which can be done by

charging
moving to overlap
creating a combat from side-edge or corner-to-corner contact

Simon

[Polkovnik]

So sometimes it might be better to hang back on your charge, and rather keep a negative modifier on cohesion tests?

No, well not normally anyway. When you charge them in the flank they drop a cohesion level immediately. This is much better than a -1 on a cohesion test.

[rbodleyscott]

So sometimes it might be better to hang back on your charge, and rather keep a negative modifier on cohesion tests?

No, well not normally anyway. When you charge them in the flank they drop a cohesion level immediately. This is much better than a -1 on a cohesion test.

And they have to fight an Impact Phase combat at a guaranteed -- POA, with a good chance of dropping a further Cohesion level.

And in the Melee phase, if also fighting to their front, they get a - POA (against both enemy battle groups) for fighting in 2 directions.

This is why the -1 for threatened flank does not apply when actually fighting to the flank - they are already being punished enough by the above effects.

One of the design principles in the rules was not to over-represent the same bad effect. (The so-call "double whammy"). In this case a -1 on the CT for fighting to flank would really be a triple or quadruple whammy because of all the above other disadvantages!

[HansJansen]

Thank you all.

I think I have the major questions answered.

I made some silly mistakes to my advantage and disadvantage in my first game. Because of your help my second game this friday is going to be so much better!

Thank you,

Hans Jansen.

[shall]

Glad to help, as all are I am sure,.

Welcome to the happy land of FOG.

Si