Game mechanics feedback: 21cm artillery

[Vorskl]

Hello fellow players and Kerensky,
Replaying Axis operations a few times, I came to conclusion that the artillery unit class and 21cm guns (Soviet 203mm, German 21 Morser 18, UK 7.2in etc) in particular require serious rebalancing.
Below are some issues / ideas for discussion / improvements:

Counter-battery feature. In its current realization, 21cm guns behave as AA guns: they fire BEFOFE the enemy attacks. That makes perfect sense in a case of AA guns, but defies common sense for artillery (21cm guns operate as the mind police from the 'Minority report'. The mechanism should be: an enemy arty fires, 21cm detects and punish that enemy arty AFTER the enemy fired.

Limited time availability 21cm guns were exclusive and very expensive pieces requiring massive resources; both USSR and Germany stopped their production in late 1941. Kerensky, I strongly suggest to make 21cm available for purchase in the 1st scenario of DLC 1942 (both east and west) and then remove them from 'the shop'. Ideally, there should be a fixed-size pool of spareparts available to be exhausted - just like it works with prototypes

Strict ammo / cost restrictions 203mm has 4 ammo, 21 Morser 5 (!!!). That's TOO much. 21cm were slow reloading and their ammo super-expensive. We need restrict ammo to 2-3 and raise slot/prestige cost of units event further to prevent a legal abuse: a 21cm unit with Consolidator, Zero Slots and Fast Deployment (or Rapid Fire or Double Attack) becomes an atomic bomb-like mass-destruction device able to destroy ANY scenario (check Edmon's video on the vanila campaign). With 2 ammo there will be no incentive for abuse.

No class evolution /Game trait imbalance While tanks are being unveiled one by one, ALL the essential arty (except 17 cm and German Katyusha) is available from the beginning. Which opens up the game for another legal abuse: in all the DLC except 1939, take the 'Denied Artillery' trait - it's 3 free trait points. In DLC 1939, enable arty and stockpile 10/15/21cm units for the remaining campaigns. The trick only works with arty because of its availability - goodluck stockpiling SCW planes and using them in 1940 against brits.

[Duedman]

Its probably pointless trying to "balance" anything in this game with all the hero shenanigans going around.
I agree that it is kinda strange that counter batteries can read minds ( = fire fist)

Also I see why the Devs made it possible to change hero traits mid DLC. Its just such a looooong campaign and so many nice traits one might like to try.
But it opens up the cheese factory big time.
The aforementioned trick also works with No Airforce (if u got some Veteran AA and Airforce), Hero Stacking and No Overstrength

[dalfrede]

Hello fellow players and Kerensky, . . .

Uran is the guy who handles the equipment file, has been fairly quiet since the original Beta.
Kerensky does the AOxx DLCs.

[Kerensky]

Uran is the guy who handles the equipment file, has been fairly quiet since the original Beta.
Kerensky does the AOxx DLCs.

The way you wrote that, made me think of the 19XX arcade games.
https://youtu.be/5TKssr-rzTE?t=63

But yes, you are right. I can only offer suggestions and recommendations for the Equipment file, not edit or manage it directly.

[Vorskl]

Its probably pointless trying to "balance" anything in this game with all the hero shenanigans going around.
I agree that it is kinda strange that counter batteries can read minds ( = fire fist)

Also I see why the Devs made it possible to change hero traits mid DLC. Its just such a looooong campaign and so many nice traits one might like to try.
But it opens up the cheese factory big time.
The aforementioned trick also works with No Airforce (if u got some Veteran AA and Airforce), Hero Stacking and No Overstrength

Limiting ammo to 2 and making a fixed-size spareparts pool will resolve most of the issues.
And counter-battery just need a programming rework

[Snake97644]

Counter-battery feature. In its current realization, 21cm guns behave as AA guns: they fire BEFOFE the enemy attacks. That makes perfect sense in a case of AA guns, but defies common sense for artillery (21cm guns operate as the mind police from the 'Minority report'. The mechanism should be: an enemy arty fires, 21cm detects and punish that enemy arty AFTER the enemy fired.

I think changing this is logical

[George_Parr]

Hello fellow players and Kerensky,
Replaying Axis operations a few times, I came to conclusion that the artillery unit class and 21cm guns (Soviet 203mm, German 21 Morser 18, UK 7.2in etc) in particular require serious rebalancing.
Below are some issues / ideas for discussion / improvements:

Counter-battery feature. In its current realization, 21cm guns behave as AA guns: they fire BEFOFE the enemy attacks. That makes perfect sense in a case of AA guns, but defies common sense for artillery (21cm guns operate as the mind police from the 'Minority report'. The mechanism should be: an enemy arty fires, 21cm detects and punish that enemy arty AFTER the enemy fired.

Limited time availability 21cm guns were exclusive and very expensive pieces requiring massive resources; both USSR and Germany stopped their production in late 1941. Kerensky, I strongly suggest to make 21cm available for purchase in the 1st scenario of DLC 1942 (both east and west) and then remove them from 'the shop'. Ideally, there should be a fixed-size pool of spareparts available to be exhausted - just like it works with prototypes

Strict ammo / cost restrictions 203mm has 4 ammo, 21 Morser 5 (!!!). That's TOO much. 21cm were slow reloading and their ammo super-expensive. We need restrict ammo to 2-3 and raise slot/prestige cost of units event further to prevent a legal abuse: a 21cm unit with Consolidator, Zero Slots and Fast Deployment (or Rapid Fire or Double Attack) becomes an atomic bomb-like mass-destruction device able to destroy ANY scenario (check Edmon's video on the vanila campaign). With 2 ammo there will be no incentive for abuse.

No class evolution /Game trait imbalance While tanks are being unveiled one by one, ALL the essential arty (except 17 cm and German Katyusha) is available from the beginning. Which opens up the game for another legal abuse: in all the DLC except 1939, take the 'Denied Artillery' trait - it's 3 free trait points. In DLC 1939, enable arty and stockpile 10/15/21cm units for the remaining campaigns. The trick only works with arty because of its availability - goodluck stockpiling SCW planes and using them in 1940 against brits.

Counter-battery fire is definately something that should be changed. Maybe you could lower the ammo as well, though 2 might be a bit low.

I don't see much of an issue with the evolution. If someone wants to "abuse" any rules, who cares?
No one is forced to do so. Just like no one is forced to use any cheat-codes. If someone wants to cheat against his own choices, than that is something a player has to come to terms with on his own, don't you think?
It's not like this is something that impacts other players, as it doesn't involve multiplayer. The whole game has been set up in a way that a player can set everything the way he wants. He can give himself large amounts of extra skills, and redo as many steps during a round as he wants. If all of that is allowed, why would you suddenly takee a completely different course for this one rather minute detail?

I also must disagree with availability. I don't know about the Soviet 203mm gun, but the German 21cm Mortar was in fact produced after 1941 as well. Production was temporarily stopped in 1942, due to the 17cm gun having almost equal firepower at a much greater range*, but the 21cm was back in production by 1943. Sources differ a bit, with some saying it was produced until 1943, while others indicate a production until the end of the war.
There was a 21cm Kanone 38 (and 39/40 and 39/41), with a range exceeding that of the 17cm gun, but those were only produced in limited numbers.

I think something that seems more in need of a rebalance are the AT-guns. For some reason there is a pretty big step up from 3.7cm to 5cm guns, and a much smaller one from 5cm to 7.5cm ones. It should be the other way round. The Hetzer also needs a much lower slot cost. There is no reason why it should be above 3, yet it stands at 5.


* one could make a case that the 17cm gun in the game should in fact have a larger range than the 21cm one. Seeing how one could fire about 30km far while the other managed less than 17km.

[Vorskl]

I also must disagree with availability. I don't know about the Soviet 203mm gun, but the German 21cm Mortar was in fact produced after 1941 as well. Production was temporarily stopped in 1942, due to the 17cm gun having almost equal firepower at a much greater range*, but the 21cm was back in production by 1943. Sources differ a bit, with some saying it was produced until 1943, while others indicate a production until the end of the war.
There was a 21cm Kanone 38 (and 39/40 and 39/41), with a range exceeding that of the 17cm gun, but those were only produced in limited numbers.

* one could make a case that the 17cm gun in the game should in fact have a larger range than the 21cm one. Seeing how one could fire about 30km far while the other managed less than 17km.

203mm were produced in Stalingrad and their production ended in 1941 (technically, 3 units were made in 1942 but these were left-overs). 203mm due to their rarity, cost, significance and power belonged to so called Stavka Artillery Reserve. Only Stavka (i.e. Stalin himself) could authorize their use and deployment. There were even larger serial Soviet guns - 280mm Br-5 mortars; these monsters were produced in 1939-40 but used only in 1944-45.

[scorehouse]

i agree with Parr! speaking of mortar's shouldn't various infantry units be mortar equipped and able to use them offensively and defensively? (see Order of Battle) also weren't 88's everywhere. wasn't there a cheaper anti-tank version that wasn't used for AA? the game even tells you to deploy 88's but at 4 cost it's too high priced.

[Scrapulous]

I agree 100% that counter-battery fire should be changed so that the attacking artillery's fire resolves first. I have a lethal attack 203mm piece that routinely destroys enemy artillery completely before they even fire. It looks exactly like my artillery crew interrupts the enemy turn to take an extra shot, kills an enemy gun, then allows the enemy turn to proceed. That's silly.

I wouldn't have a problem with reducing 20cm pieces to 2 or 3 ammunition.

I think something that seems more in need of a rebalance are the AT-guns. For some reason there is a pretty big step up from 3.7cm to 5cm guns, and a much smaller one from 5cm to 7.5cm ones. It should be the other way round.

I think this is a symptom of a bigger problem: all tubes firing ammunition of equivalent diameter have the same stats. This ignores actual, meaningful differences such as barrel length and available ammunition. The Soviets alone had three different 45mm AT guns in service during the war - this is not because they enjoyed making extra work for themselves during an invasion. I wonder if the big step in performance from 3.7cm to 5cm is modeling the Soviet experience: at the outset of the war, their 37mm guns were not especially helpful, while their 45mm and especially 57mm guns were vital (I think the 57mm guns weren't actually in service at the outbreak of the war, and according to wikipedia their production was halted at the end of 1941 because the 45mm guns were adequate against German armor of the time).

This feels especially strange to me because differences in barrel length are modeled for tanks, at least in some cases. For instance, the PzIIIH, with a 5cm L/42 gun (210cm long), has a hard attack of 16. The PzIIIL, with a 5cm L/60 (300cm long) gun, has a hard attack of 18. I'm not an expert and I can't comment on whether 2 is the right performance increment, but my understanding is that barrel length absolutely makes a difference in armor penetration because longer barrels can produce greater velocity. The difference in hard attack is reasonable and proper. But that kind of difference does not seem to appear in towed AT stats.

I suppose it would be a lot of research to make these differences apparent in the units file, but it would at least solve the problem of WWI artillery performing identically to WWII artillery of the same caliber, and all AT guns of the same caliber being identical.

[Tassadar]

I agree 100% that counter-battery fire should be changed so that the attacking artillery's fire resolves first. I have a lethal attack 203mm piece that routinely destroys enemy artillery completely before they even fire. It looks exactly like my artillery crew interrupts the enemy turn to take an extra shot, kills an enemy gun, then allows the enemy turn to proceed. That's silly.

I wouldn't have a problem with reducing 20cm pieces to 2 or 3 ammunition.

Agree to both - 3 ammo and have counter batter fire resolve second would be reasonable upgrades. Also, this type of ammo change justifies considering a generic +2 ammo hero as a new addition with interesting potential for these big guns, rocket launchers, flame tanks and such.

[Catacol]

Just mod them - I've added 300 approx to the cost of all heavy artillery and suddenly they are a high price asset that is vulnerable and costly to lose. Works very well in multiplayer. There is so much that can be done via modding - though for one player I run the vanilla units setup because it has been tested that way.

For multiplayer I've made a long list of changes - AA, artillery range (some up, some down as I dont think the ranges are all correct), new MG, mortar, special forces, sniper units on top of various new infantry units, recosted several units, tweaked some spotting ranges. Makes the game better if multiplayer is your thing.

[euramer]

I understand all the points you made above, but as an average player I found already the game sufficiently a challenge. I agree that counter battery is may be in reverse order and could be changed, but the 21 cm is my main tool to get rid of the pesky KV1 when the planes are not available due to weather constraints. I don't like very much either playing defence in seemingly hopeless situations scenarios, and that usually the case later in the war, but without a good artillery, when the Russians outnumber you, I am not sure that I would finish them.

[Moransky]

Limited time availability 21cm guns were exclusive and very expensive pieces requiring massive resources; both USSR and Germany stopped their production in late 1941. Kerensky, I strongly suggest to make 21cm available for purchase in the 1st scenario of DLC 1942 (both east and west) and then remove them from 'the shop'. Ideally, there should be a fixed-size pool of spareparts available to be exhausted - just like it works with prototypes

Strict ammo / cost restrictions 203mm has 4 ammo, 21 Morser 5 (!!!). That's TOO much. 21cm were slow reloading and their ammo super-expensive. We need restrict ammo to 2-3 and raise slot/prestige cost of units event further to prevent a legal abuse: a 21cm unit with Consolidator, Zero Slots and Fast Deployment (or Rapid Fire or Double Attack) becomes an atomic bomb-like mass-destruction device able to destroy ANY scenario (check Edmon's video on the vanila campaign). With 2 ammo there will be no incentive for abuse.

No class evolution /Game trait imbalance While tanks are being unveiled one by one, ALL the essential arty (except 17 cm and German Katyusha) is available from the beginning. Which opens up the game for another legal abuse: in all the DLC except 1939, take the 'Denied Artillery' trait - it's 3 free trait points. In DLC 1939, enable arty and stockpile 10/15/21cm units for the remaining campaigns. The trick only works with arty because of its availability - goodluck stockpiling SCW planes and using them in 1940 against brits.

I disagree with you. Panzer Corps 2 is ahistorical game, it has little connections with real WW2. I've collected dozens examples of this like Katyusha or Il-2 in 1939, 10 units of Su-100-Y etc. So, I don't think that 21 cm must become exception to the rule. It's normal to have such ahistorical artillery in ahistorical game because it makes gameplay more interesting. And it doesn't break balance too much because it's not so cheap.