About the Low Countries spearmen in some nations' 1050-1154 AD army lists

[Dux Limitis]

I think the game added them into a wrong priod.For what I read,they started to use longer spears and relatively(Compared with the most counterparts) deeper formation in late 12th or early 13th century,they shouldn't appear in the mid 11th century to the early 12th century(Mr. Paul Adaway seems clearly knows that so when he design the Crug Mawr 1136 AD scenario he did place those Flemish mercenary spearmen as normal spearmen.).Also,their models with heater shields not appropriate to the earlier priod(The Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen with heater shields too,if in the future they can have earlier models for the early priod will be better.).

[Athos1660]

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

Also,their models with heater shields not appropriate to the earlier priod(The Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen with heater shields too,if in the future they can have earlier models for the early priod will be better.).

See I. Heath, drawing 43 for a drawing of this infantry during the 12th and 13th centuries similar to that in game.

(...) For what I read (...)

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[Paul59]

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

Also,their models with heater shields not appropriate to the earlier priod(The Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen with heater shields too,if in the future they can have earlier models for the early priod will be better.).

See I. Heath, drawing 43.

(...) For what I read (...)

Read more

To be fair, Heath clearly says in the text to that figure that it is based on the Courtrai chest (made sometime after 1302) and another source of a similar date, so the figure itself is typical of a soldier from the late 13th/early 14th century.

I didn't use them for the Crug Mawr scenario because the sources clearly state that the Flemish mercenary spearmen in that battle were armoured.

[Athos1660]

To be fair, Heath clearly says in the text to that figure that it is based on the Courtrai chest (made sometime after 1302) and another source of a similar date, so the figure itself is typical of a soldier from the late 13th/early 14th century.

To be fair, Heath clearly says : "he is nevertheless typical of the high-quality, well armed and Armoured Brabançon and Flemish mercenaries who featured in so many Western European armies of the 12th century and 13th century".

[Paul59]

To be fair, Heath clearly says in the text to that figure that it is based on the Courtrai chest (made sometime after 1302) and another source of a similar date, so the figure itself is typical of a soldier from the late 13th/early 14th century.

To be fair, Heath clearly says : "he is nevertheless typical of the high-quality, well armed and Armoured Brabançon and Flemish mercenaries who featured in so many Western European armies of the 12th century and 13th century".

Typical in his general dress and armament, but in the details, no.

If you look at the text to Heath's illustration number 4, a knight of c1175, he says "The flat topped shield appeared c1140 and was the most common design after the early 13th century". So to have it in lists going back to 1050 is strictly speaking inaccurate, although of course due to budgetary constraints we cannot expect to have every single change in armour and equipment represented in the game.

[Dux Limitis]

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

Also,their models with heater shields not appropriate to the earlier priod(The Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen with heater shields too,if in the future they can have earlier models for the early priod will be better.).

See I. Heath, drawing 43 for a drawing of this infantry during the 12th and 13th centuries similar to that in game.

(...) For what I read (...)

Read more

1.I don't think so,the first thing is the books which writed by Ian Heath were more like tabletop wargames reference books(And did published by the wargames research group)not like real history books.How geldons been used as early as 11th century?I don't see any sources been given about this in this chapter of his book.And the manuscript suggested in mid 12th century they still use the normal length spears.(From the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Liege).
2.Did you realised the page 43 reference to the chest depicting scenes of the Battle of Courtrai 1302 AD?You means the Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen form the early 12th century,even 11th Century should looks like that,also with heater shields?I more suggest you see the earlier(12th century) Welsh spearmen drawing in the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500 than the Ian Heath's.Monument and manuscripts suggested that the earliest possible priod that heater shields appeared was in the mid 12th Century(See Henri I,Count of Eu's and Hugh Malveysin's),and other shields(Mostly kite shields) remained popular among the foot soldiers in this priod.
3.With some respects when you spoke to the others.
Images:
1.Manuscript from the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Flemish spearmen.
2.Early Welsh spearmen from the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500,page 31.
3.Monument of Henri I,Count of Eu,1140 AD.

[Dux Limitis]

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

Also,their models with heater shields not appropriate to the earlier priod(The Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen with heater shields too,if in the future they can have earlier models for the early priod will be better.).

See I. Heath, drawing 43.

(...) For what I read (...)

Read more

I didn't use them for the Crug Mawr scenario because the sources clearly state that the Flemish mercenary spearmen in that battle were armoured.

According to the manuscripts,I think you did the right thing to place those Flemish there as normal armoured spearmen(In this priod).

[Paul59]

1.I don't think so,the first thing is the books which writed by Ian Heath were more like tabletop wargames reference books(And did published by the wargames research group)not like real history books.How geldons been used as early as 11th century?I don't see any sources been given about this in this chapter of his book.And the manuscript suggested in mid 12th century they still use the normal length spears.(From the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Liege).
2.Did you realised the page 43 reference to the chest depicting scenes of the Battle of Courtrai 1302 AD?You means the Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen form the early 12th century,even 11th Century should looks like that,also with heater shields?I more suggest you see the earlier(12th century) Welsh spearmen drawing in the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500 than the Ian Heath's.Monument and manuscripts suggested that the earliest possible priod that heater shields appeared was in the mid 12th Century(See Henri I,Count of Eu's and Hugh Malveysin's),and other shields(Mostly kite shields) remained popular among the foot soldiers in this priod.
3.With some respects when you spoke to the others.
Images:
1.Manuscript from the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Flemish spearmen.
2.Early Welsh spearmen from the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500,page 31.
3.Monument of Henri I,Count of Eu,1140 AD.

Enough with the Heath bashing! As I said in my previous post, Heath clearly sets out the development of the kite shield into the heater shield in his illustrations on European knights.

His illustration of a 11th -13th century Welsh spearmen (no. 46) is exactly like the one you have provided, so how is he wrong there?

[Dux Limitis]

1.I don't think so,the first thing is the books which writed by Ian Heath were more like tabletop wargames reference books(And did published by the wargames research group)not like real history books.How geldons been used as early as 11th century?I don't see any sources been given about this in this chapter of his book.And the manuscript suggested in mid 12th century they still use the normal length spears.(From the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Liege).
2.Did you realised the page 43 reference to the chest depicting scenes of the Battle of Courtrai 1302 AD?You means the Welsh,Scottish,Free Cantons spearmen form the early 12th century,even 11th Century should looks like that,also with heater shields?I more suggest you see the earlier(12th century) Welsh spearmen drawing in the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500 than the Ian Heath's.Monument and manuscripts suggested that the earliest possible priod that heater shields appeared was in the mid 12th Century(See Henri I,Count of Eu's and Hugh Malveysin's),and other shields(Mostly kite shields) remained popular among the foot soldiers in this priod.
3.With some respects when you spoke to the others.
Images:
1.Manuscript from the Mosaner Psalter,1150-1160 AD,Flemish spearmen.
2.Early Welsh spearmen from the Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World AD 500~AD 1500,page 31.
3.Monument of Henri I,Count of Eu,1140 AD.

Enough with the Heath bashing! As I said in my previous post, Heath clearly sets out the development of the kite shield into the heater shield in his illustrations on European knights.

His illustration of a 11th -13th century Welsh spearmen (no. 46) is exactly like the one you have provided, so how is he wrong there?

Sorry for my mistake about the Ian Heath's illustration about the Welsh spearmen,I got the wrong page because you saw he said I should see the page 43,nothing wrong in his illustration in page 46&47.And still,the earlier Welsh spearmen need new models in game like that.

[Dux Limitis]

I also haven't argue about those men are wearing bascinets,a type of helmet first appeared in the late 13th century and widely used from 14th century,Appeared in 11th-12th century in the game.

[rbodleyscott]

As I have said before, we are well aware that models in the game are only accurate for a part of the date ranges they are being used for. This is due to budgetary and art time constraints. If we attempted to cover every nuance of equipment change over the period covered by the game it would not have been possible to produce the game at all.

[Dux Limitis]

As I have said before, we are well aware that models in the game are only accurate for a part of the date ranges they are being used for. This is due to budgetary and art time constraints. If we attempted to cover every nuance of equipment change over the period covered by the game it would not have been possible to produce the game at all.

But except the problems of the models(Not the first intention of this topic,because that could be solved in the future like the FoG II:Ancient did).The main problem is about the Low Countries spearmen with long spears appeared in the 1050-1154 AD army lists was pretty wired because no clearly evidences about they started to use longer spears at that time and manuscript suggested we should treated them as normal armoured spearmen in that priod(Same as in the Hastings and Crug Mawr scenarios) so I think the game should remove those Low Countries spearmen from army lists of that priod.

[rbodleyscott]

As I have said before, we are well aware that models in the game are only accurate for a part of the date ranges they are being used for. This is due to budgetary and art time constraints. If we attempted to cover every nuance of equipment change over the period covered by the game it would not have been possible to produce the game at all.

But except the problems of the models(Not the first intention of this topic,because that could be solved in the future like the FoG II:Ancient did).The main problem is about the Low Countries spearmen with long spears appeared in the 1050-1154 AD army lists was pretty wired because no clearly evidences about they started to use longer spears at that time and manuscript suggested we should treated them as normal armoured spearmen in that priod(Same as in the Hastings and Crug Mawr scenarios) so I think the game should remove those Low Countries spearmen from army lists of that priod.

As Athos posted:

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

We follow Ian Heath on this. While it is true his books were published by a wargaming company, the name of that company was Wargames Research Group for a reason - it was dedicated to serious research on military history. Most academic historians are less interested in the nitty-gritty details of the history of warfare, so it isn't at all fair to characterise Ian Heath's books (and other WRG publications) as non-serious wargaming books.

[Dux Limitis]

As I have said before, we are well aware that models in the game are only accurate for a part of the date ranges they are being used for. This is due to budgetary and art time constraints. If we attempted to cover every nuance of equipment change over the period covered by the game it would not have been possible to produce the game at all.

But except the problems of the models(Not the first intention of this topic,because that could be solved in the future like the FoG II:Ancient did).The main problem is about the Low Countries spearmen with long spears appeared in the 1050-1154 AD army lists was pretty wired because no clearly evidences about they started to use longer spears at that time and manuscript suggested we should treated them as normal armoured spearmen in that priod(Same as in the Hastings and Crug Mawr scenarios) so I think the game should remove those Low Countries spearmen from army lists of that priod.

As Athos posted:

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

We follow Ian Heath on this. While it is true his books were published by a wargaming company, the name of that company was Wargames Research Group for a reason - it was dedicated to serious research on military history. Most academic historians are less interested in the nitty-gritty details of the history of warfare, so it isn't at all fair to characterise Ian Heath's books (and other WRG publications) as non-serious wargaming books.

Ah,seems I have to wait the new models for the early Low Countries spearmen.Still I wonder where are the other sources can provide they started to use the long spears from the 11th century(Even the I.Heath didn't give the source about this in page 43 about the Flemish spearmen).

[rbodleyscott]

But except the problems of the models(Not the first intention of this topic,because that could be solved in the future like the FoG II:Ancient did).The main problem is about the Low Countries spearmen with long spears appeared in the 1050-1154 AD army lists was pretty wired because no clearly evidences about they started to use longer spears at that time and manuscript suggested we should treated them as normal armoured spearmen in that priod(Same as in the Hastings and Crug Mawr scenarios) so I think the game should remove those Low Countries spearmen from army lists of that priod.

As Athos posted:

Ian Heath : "The Low countries were making extensive use of such infantry, armed with long spears called geldons, as early as the 11th century, but as mercenaries their heyday was the period from c. 1100 to 1214."

We follow Ian Heath on this. While it is true his books were published by a wargaming company, the name of that company was Wargames Research Group for a reason - it was dedicated to serious research on military history. Most academic historians are less interested in the nitty-gritty details of the history of warfare, so it isn't at all fair to characterise Ian Heath's books (and other WRG publications) as non-serious wargaming books.

Ah,seems I have to wait the new models for the early Low Countries spearmen.Still I wonder where are the other sources can provide they started to use the long spears from the 11th century(Even the I.Heath didn't give the source about this in page 43 about the Flemish spearmen).

Indeed. Unfortunately one of the (few) defects of the WRG books is that they did not comprehensively list their sources.

[Dux Limitis]

As Athos posted:



We follow Ian Heath on this. While it is true his books were published by a wargaming company, the name of that company was Wargames Research Group for a reason - it was dedicated to serious research on military history. Most academic historians are less interested in the nitty-gritty details of the history of warfare, so it isn't at all fair to characterise Ian Heath's books (and other WRG publications) as non-serious wargaming books.

Ah,seems I have to wait the new models for the early Low Countries spearmen.Still I wonder where are the other sources can provide they started to use the long spears from the 11th century(Even the I.Heath didn't give the source about this in page 43 about the Flemish spearmen).

Indeed. Unfortunately one of the (few) defects of the WRG books is that they did not comprehensively list their sources.

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

[rbodleyscott]

Ah,seems I have to wait the new models for the early Low Countries spearmen.Still I wonder where are the other sources can provide they started to use the long spears from the 11th century(Even the I.Heath didn't give the source about this in page 43 about the Flemish spearmen).

Indeed. Unfortunately one of the (few) defects of the WRG books is that they did not comprehensively list their sources.

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Yes, there is a doubt. Although sometimes artists shortened long weapons in illustrations, in order to fit the spear points on the page.

Anyway, while there is any doubt, we would prefer not to homogenise all of the 11th/early 12th century armies. Thanks to the history, they are already more similar than we would like from a tactical interest point of view.

[rbodleyscott]

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Also, please note that we do treat Brabançon mercenaries as normal armoured spearmen in the lists. The "Low Countries Spearmen" units are intended to represent city militias using longer spear. Any cities that did not use longer spears in this period can be assumed to be represented by the other spearmen units in the army lists.

[Dux Limitis]

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Also, please note that we do treat Brabançon mercenaries as normal armoured spearmen in the lists. The "Low Countries Spearmen" units are intended to represent city militias using longer spear. Any cities that did not use longer spears in this period can be assumed to be represented by the other spearmen units in the army lists.

Sure that's no problem for the 13th Century lists but spearmen in Mosaner Psalter are Liègeois and we don't know they are militias or not so we can presume in that priod(12th century,also more earlier 11th century)they fought with normal length spears.

[Dux Limitis]

Indeed. Unfortunately one of the (few) defects of the WRG books is that they did not comprehensively list their sources.

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Yes, there is a doubt. Although sometimes artists shortened long weapons in illustrations, in order to fit the spear points on the page.

Anyway, while there is any doubt, we would prefer not to homogenise all of the 11th/early 12th century armies. Thanks to the history, they are already more similar than we would like from a tactical interest point of view.

With comparisons to the other manuscripts in the same priod I think the possibility of artist of Mosaner Psalter shortened long weapons in illustraton was relatively low.And mister,you know the history accurate>not to homogenise,acully I think in 11-12th century the armies in Western Europes did homogenise to each,the different of each mostly about who have more knights in this priod.(And in game the 11-12th century armies of Western Europe are not that himogenise at all,like Germans have massed dismounted knights with heavy weapon capabilities).