How to use knights

[Kerait]

My impression from my limited reading of 11th and 12th Century battles is that battles were usually/often decided by the charge of the knights.

However, I'm currently using a couple of fairly knight-heavy armies in battle and I get the feeling that succeeding with knights is greatly about the fortunes of your dice rolling (which I guess is realistic, given the historically erratic nature of knightly success on the battlefield).

You can strike the enemy infantry again and again, and perhaps once you get a disrupt there or a fragment here you can break the line and win the battle, but if you don't get a couple of those 1 in 3 chance combat victories your knights will gradually get caught up and whittled down by arrows, inconclusive melees etc.

What's the way to consistently use knights to good effect? Making them a smaller element of an infantry-heavier army? Using cavalry to flank is a challenge in this game, let alone with the trundling knight!

All this said, I am not a particularly skilful or careful player on a foundational tactical level, so I recognise my poor record doesn't necessarily reflect on the knights' potential as a unit. But I am increasingly getting the notion that knights, given their low numbers and high cost, are a high-risk, high-reward unit and that often their performance is largely out of the player's hands.

Nevertheless, does anyone have any tips on how best to use knights? Both on a basic tactical level as well as how to incorporate knights into an army composition?

[w_michael]

I can say generally that do not be afraid to charge the enemy if you have good impact odds, even if you fall back afterward. I've been doing that against the English with Norman knights in the Battle of Hastings and every once in a while you disrupt the select fyrd with little hurt to yourself.

[Dux Limitis]

This is the typical battle tactic of that time.You can try that.Remember don't let your infantry out of steps with your knights,they need to support the knights in close combat or follow when the knights break through the enemy line.

[VenG]

I had a MP battle in which I conentrated 10 knight squads on my left flank, supported by light archers and javelinmen. I was able to roll his army from the left, while the center and right held, so flanking with knights is not impossible

[Dux Limitis]

Works pretty well for me.

[Horde]

This is the typical battle tactic of that time.You can try that.Remember don't let your infantry out of steps with your knights,they need to support the knights in close combat or follow when the knights break through the enemy line.

Can you provide the source of these images, please?

[Dux Limitis]

This is the typical battle tactic of that time.You can try that.Remember don't let your infantry out of steps with your knights,they need to support the knights in close combat or follow when the knights break through the enemy line.

Can you provide the source of these images, please?

From a book named Fighting Techniques Of The Medieval World AD500~AD1500

[Kerait]

I can say generally that do not be afraid to charge the enemy if you have good impact odds, even if you fall back afterward. I've been doing that against the English with Norman knights in the Battle of Hastings and every once in a while you disrupt the select fyrd with little hurt to yourself.

I have noted that too, but if you are facing an enemy army with deep spearmen formations your odds are not reliable. Even if you win a combat and the knight elects to stay in combat, if the enemy is not disrupted the knight will gradually be whittled down, having lesser number. Crossbowmen and even archers are also a great danger just because knights don't have have many troops within a unit and small losses are costly. Hastings is a good showcase of knights, but you are not exactly facing a combined-arms force as you would in a random map MP game.

This is the typical battle tactic of that time.You can try that.Remember don't let your infantry out of steps with your knights,they need to support the knights in close combat or follow when the knights break through the enemy line.

This makes sense. It's the formation used in the Battle of Bouvines isn't it? I will try this.

[Dux Limitis]

I can say generally that do not be afraid to charge the enemy if you have good impact odds, even if you fall back afterward. I've been doing that against the English with Norman knights in the Battle of Hastings and every once in a while you disrupt the select fyrd with little hurt to yourself.

I have noted that too, but if you are facing an enemy army with deep spearmen formations your odds are not reliable. Even if you win a combat and the knight elects to stay in combat, if the enemy is not disrupted the knight will gradually be whittled down, having lesser number. Crossbowmen and even archers are also a great danger just because knights don't have have many troops within a unit and small losses are costly. Hastings is a good showcase of knights, but you are not exactly facing a combined-arms force as you would in a random map MP game.

This is the typical battle tactic of that time.You can try that.Remember don't let your infantry out of steps with your knights,they need to support the knights in close combat or follow when the knights break through the enemy line.

This makes sense. It's the formation used in the Battle of Bouvines isn't it? I will try this.

In most of the medieval battles when deploy the heavy cavalry on the front will have the infantry on their backs as reserves,except of Bouvines there're Zallaqa,Lake Peipu,Campaldino,Kephistos(Athenians),Nicopolis(Crusaders) etc.And the Franco-Burgundian knightly vanguards failed at Nicopolis because they were forced dismounted by spikes and advanced too further then out of steps with their Hungarian allies.So do not let your infantry out of steps with your knights if you deploy them on the knights' backs.

[VenG]

Here is my game, where I concentrated most knights on the left, supported by light shooters. Pretty quick job smashing the enemy line from the left

[Horde]

From what I´m seeing, an important clue is to give them space to retreat if they lose the impact. I have won a match with Normans against Anglo-Saxon 50-0 with a knights-heavy army in open terrain. Thats not because I´m very good at playing; I´ve lost a battle at 50-04 or so with early Welsh against a similar army, because the map was open and my light spear infantry was erased by knightly charges; I destroyed one or two skirmishers, disrupted a couple of enemy spearmen, but lost unit after unit. In the match I mentioned before, 1 on 2 units were mounted knights or even more; the rest were dismounted knights to attack the weaker units of the enemy and defensive spearmen to hold the line. No shooters and no skirmishers. I used them mainly in the same line; if the infantry is behind the mounted knights, they can block the retreats, and if they can go backwards they will loose badly. Infantry units provide support to prevent flankings, make attacks of opportunity and hold terrain.

From a book named Fighting Techniques Of The Medieval World AD500~AD1500

Many thanks.

[rbodleyscott]

From what I´m seeing, an important clue is to give them space to retreat if they lose the impact.

That does seem to be key. Especially to winning densely populated battlefields like the Hastings scenario.

[Horde]

That does seem to be key. Especially to winning densely populated battlefields like the Hastings scenario.

Speaking of which, what are the rules that prevent disengaging when fighting two or more units? I´ve seen knights disengaging after fighting two units at 45 degrees of each other, but can they retreat if they have two enemies at 90 degrees? And 135? I assume that if they are fighting at the front and rear simultaneously they cant retreat sideways.

[rbodleyscott]

That does seem to be key. Especially to winning densely populated battlefields like the Hastings scenario.

Speaking of which, what are the rules that prevent disengaging when fighting two or more units? I´ve seen knights disengaging after fighting two units at 45 degrees of each other, but can they retreat if they have two enemies at 90 degrees? And 135?

No

They also can't fall back into an enemy ZOC.

[Horde]

Speaking of which, what are the rules that prevent disengaging when fighting two or more units? I´ve seen knights disengaging after fighting two units at 45 degrees of each other, but can they retreat if they have two enemies at 90 degrees? And 135?

No

They also can't fall back into an enemy ZOC.

Thanks. This includes secondary ZOCs?

[rbodleyscott]

Speaking of which, what are the rules that prevent disengaging when fighting two or more units? I´ve seen knights disengaging after fighting two units at 45 degrees of each other, but can they retreat if they have two enemies at 90 degrees? And 135?

No

They also can't fall back into an enemy ZOC.

Thanks. This includes secondary ZOCs?

Looking at the code, it appears so.

[Horde]

Looking at the code, it appears so.

Very interesting, thanks.

[Sabratha]

The medieval battles in the FoG system feel less "tactical" than the ancient ones, precisely because most units are undrilled and knights move and turn slowly. They also go out of control easier than pure non-knightly lancers.

Which is not to say this is a fault of the system, as that is a good reflection of historical reality from what I know. But it makes the medieval army games feel less interesting for me.

With a Roman vs Macedonian battle, it would often turn into an elaborate exchange of chess-like moves with deep cavalry encirclements, flank and counter-flank attacks. Medieval army battles often turn into a "who gets to be the first one to hit the enemy raw foot with his knights". Doesn't mean I do not enjoy FoG:M battles, but I enjoy them less than the ancient ones because of that.


As for Knight tactics in the game - trying to charge enemy raw infantry, or medium foot is always a good idea. Flank moves are far less attractive for knights than for regular lancers. First of all because of their low speed, the enemy will have enough time to react before you even manage to whirl around their flank with your knights.

A good tactic is to charge an enemy unit with your knights, then once the melee "sticks" go in and add to the melee with your otherwise defensive spear. Good chances are the DS will not get disrupted because the enemy unit is already busy with your knights, so you can then crumple them down with the spearmen in subsequent turns.

Of course, that's all fine and well if you are facing a relatively symmetrical army composed of knights and spearmen. But a Fatimid or Seljuk army composed of Turcomans and Ghilman, that's an entirely different thing.

[tyronec]

Am not sure if I have this right, but in the pic the Teutonic Knights were engaged with the dismounted knights to their front.
They lost the melee and fell back one hex, but that hex is in the secondary ZOC of the other dismounted knights unit.
So it would appear that a secondary ZOC does not block push backs.

push back.jpg (125.69 KiB) Viewed 3732 times

[Horde]

Am not sure if I have this right, but in the pic the Teutonic Knights were engaged with the dismounted knights to their front.
They lost the melee and fell back one hex, but that hex is in the secondary ZOC of the other dismounted knights unit.
So it would appear that a secondary ZOC does not block push backs.
push back.jpg

It seems so, then. Thanks for showing it.